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Brooklyn Public Library offers access to banned ebooks to teens across the U.S

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Re: Brooklyn Public Library offers access to banned ebooks to teens across the U.S

#61

Post by temp8964 »

klyrs wrote: post #56
HelixEndeavor wrote: post #28

One of the books specifically cited is The 1619 Project, which if I am not mistaken was widely criticized even by professors for being a narrowsighted and completely ahistorical look at slavery in America.

In quite a few of the critiques I've read, it's described as a valuable perspective despite the ahistorical bits -- some of which have been corrected. Should the entire project be censored?

I am not sure what you mean "censored". It's so wrong that it should be excluded from school curriculum, does this mean it is censored? Like how creationism is censored from science curriculum?

Re: Brooklyn Public Library offers access to banned ebooks to teens across the U.S

#62

Post by temp8964 »

frob wrote: post #31
HelixEndeavor wrote: post #28

One of the books specifically cited is The 1619 Project, which if I am not mistaken was widely criticized even by professors for being a narrowsighted and completely ahistorical look at slavery in America.

That's not a reason for banning a book. Libraries are full of books that are completely ahistorical and narrowsighted. Just go look in the political opinion and analysis section.

Public school libraries are usually the size of a single room. Does this mean public school libraries ban 99.999999% of books?

Re: Brooklyn Public Library offers access to banned ebooks to teens across the U.S

#63

Post by cato_the_elder »

rootusrootus wrote: post #38
cato_the_elder wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> darn progressive > you're mad Ok, I think we should all keep cool around here. There are many examples of people who call themselves progressives "banning" books. In the sense of school boards removing books from the curriculum (which is part of what's happening in Texas), here's a recent example: [1]. Some go as far as literally burning books [2]. [1]: https://www.newsweek.com/schools-drop-kill-mockingbird-requi..…

For context, here is the relevant information from that first link: "The Mukilteo School Board voted unanimously to remove the book from the required reading list on Monday evening, The Everett Herald reported. The board's move does not ban the book from being taught, and it remains on the district-approved novel list." Removing a book from a required reading list isn't even a little bit like banning it.

Right, and I don't think I misrepresented what they are doing:

> In the sense of school boards removing books from the curriculum

The word "banned" is used in many different senses, this sense is used a lot about part of what's happening in Texas. That's not the only thing they are doing though.

I know about at least two school libraries, and one rural public library (Llano County) removing books from the shelves (some supposedly "temporarily"). There's so much propaganda around this that figuring out the exact extent of what's happening is beyond my patience.

Re: Brooklyn Public Library offers access to banned ebooks to teens across the U.S

#64

Post by wfleming »

ALittleLight wrote: post #39

I like to use "The Turner Diaries" as a kind of litmus test for people who don't want to ban books. I notice that, while all of the books this article calls out specifically are available at the Brooklyn Public Library - per their online catalog, "The Turner Diaries" is not and neither are any books by its author - either his real name or pseudonym. The Turner Diaries, for reference, is a white supremacist novel that…

The Turner Diaries is, I think, a poor choice of litmus test for this. It was never picked up by a major publisher, and was basically always self-published as far as I know. Wikipedia gives an estimate of 200k-500k copies sold, total, since 1978: that’s not a lot!

Libraries do have to make curatorial choices about what to stock, both physically and digitally. So it’s not surprising a lot of libraries don’t stock a book that was never widely published or sold many copies, regardless of political connotations. And as controversial books go, I don’t think the Turner Diaries is one of the ones that necessarily merits wider availability for “historical interest”. I’ve never read it, maybe you have, but from I understand it’s not even a particularly interesting book it itself, only for it’s connection to some right-wing terrorists like McVeigh. The fact it never sold much sort of indicates not many people want to read it, a good reason not to carry it!

And for ebooks in particular, it’s worth remembering most libraries (including Brooklyn) outsource their digital catalog to a third party provider. So their curatorial choices are potentially limited by that as well. Again, self published book never widely published or sold: not surprising to me that the major ebook providers for libraries might not have it.

As a litmus test against your litmus test, it’s worth noting that the BK library does carry other controversial books like Mein Kampf, physically and digitally.

All of this to say that while politics is always going to influence curatorial choices of “merit”, I think suggesting that the Brooklyn library “banned” The Turner Diaries merely due to its absence from the catalog is a bit of a stretched conclusion.

Re: Brooklyn Public Library offers access to banned ebooks to teens across the U.S

#65

Post by themitigating »

dontcare007 wrote: post #34

Where banned=not paid for with public funds. Words have meanings. The books are still available, just not in schools.

So Twitter, a private company, has to fund speech it doesn't like but a public library can be forbidden from using public money for books people don't like

Re: Brooklyn Public Library offers access to banned ebooks to teens across the U.S

#66

Post by themitigating »

temp8964 wrote: post #61
klyrs wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In quite a few of the critiques I've read, it's described as a valuable perspective despite the ahistorical bits -- some of which have been corrected. Should the entire project be censored?

I am not sure what you mean "censored". It's so wrong that it should be excluded from school curriculum, does this mean it is censored? Like how creationism is censored from science curriculum?

Creationism isn't a scientific subject.

Re: Brooklyn Public Library offers access to banned ebooks to teens across the U.S

#67

Post by slg »

temp8964 wrote: post #59
slg wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is being disingenuous because a library deciding not to buy a book is different than the executive or legislature saying that the library cannot buy a book. You are implying what is happening across the country in conservative states is the former when it is more often the latter. Choice is being removed from the people who run the libraries. They are the people who best know what books their communities…

Public school library != public library

Can you clarify what you are trying to say with this comment? This distinction has no bearing on what I said. The same concept applies to both equally regardless of the current political battle being specifically about school libraries.

Re: Brooklyn Public Library offers access to banned ebooks to teens across the U.S

#68

Post by temp8964 »

themitigating wrote: post #66
temp8964 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what you mean "censored". It's so wrong that it should be excluded from school curriculum, does this mean it is censored? Like how creationism is censored from science curriculum?

Creationism isn't a scientific subject.

I am not what's your point. Science is a subject. Creationism should be excluded from science curriculum. Just like history is a subject, and 1619 should be excluded from history curriculum.

Re: Brooklyn Public Library offers access to banned ebooks to teens across the U.S

#69

Post by ALittleLight »

wfleming wrote: post #64
ALittleLight wrote: post #39

I like to use "The Turner Diaries" as a kind of litmus test for people who don't want to ban books. I notice that, while all of the books this article calls out specifically are available at the Brooklyn Public Library - per their online catalog, "The Turner Diaries" is not and neither are any books by its author - either his real name or pseudonym. The Turner Diaries, for reference, is a white supremacist novel that…

The Turner Diaries is, I think, a poor choice of litmus test for this. It was never picked up by a major publisher, and was basically always self-published as far as I know. Wikipedia gives an estimate of 200k-500k copies sold, total, since 1978: that’s not a lot! Libraries do have to make curatorial choices about what to stock, both physically and digitally. So it’s not surprising a lot of libraries don’t stock a bo…

It would be better to have a suite of controversial books and check those - I agree. That wouldn't really be a "litmus test" though - that would be more of a "test suite" which is a bit more effort than I care to invest in the claims of random groups that they oppose book banning. A litmus test, by definition, has a singular pass/fail check.

Regarding the popularity of The Turner Diaries - I believe I already addressed this. It has similar search volume, per Google Trends, as one of the example books from the article - "The Black Flamingo" - despite being published ~50 years earlier. So, I don't think popularity is a determining factor in what books the BPL is making available.

Furthermore, effectively banned books, by definition, cannot be popular. If they were popular then the bans on them would not be effective.

I feel that I've let my desire to engage in "point by point" internet-style arguments derail me though. Why the BPL does not have The Turner Diaries is beside my point - maybe they don't like it ideologically, maybe it's just not popular enough, maybe they've never heard of it - who knows.

Instead, the point I want to be making is more like - "If you think book banning is bad, would you want to make this book that advocates for genociding non-white people available to kids?" Because you should test your principles at the limits and not on appealing special cases.

A lefty 2SLQBTGIA+ activist may think and say that "Book banning is bad" when they look at a list of 1,500 books about gay sexuality being banned - but that doesn't mean they are actually against book banning, they might just be against things they like being banned. If you want to know if that lefty person is against book banning, find a book that they would hate and ask them how they feel about that. Similarly, if this article were published by a neo-Nazi institute of religious fundamentalism, I wouldn't be asking them "How about the Turner Diaries?" They would absolutely host that book and complain about it being banned. I'd ask them "How about the 1619 Project?"

As I wrote in my original comment, I am actually for book banning. I think some books are inappropriate for young people and those books should be banned from contexts where young people are likely to encounter them. When someone comes along and says "I'm against book banning!" I feel the need to challenge that because I think book banning is fine and good.

Re: Brooklyn Public Library offers access to banned ebooks to teens across the U.S

#70

Post by WalterBright »

CPLX wrote: post #42
ALittleLight wrote: post #39

I like to use "The Turner Diaries" as a kind of litmus test for people who don't want to ban books. I notice that, while all of the books this article calls out specifically are available at the Brooklyn Public Library - per their online catalog, "The Turner Diaries" is not and neither are any books by its author - either his real name or pseudonym. The Turner Diaries, for reference, is a white supremacist novel that…

But is it a book with literary value? There’s a lot of books in the world, why do you feel this one is essential for a library to stock?

Because it's controversial.
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