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Introducing Threads in Beta

element.io

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Re: Introducing Threads in Beta

#21

Post by dmitriid »

kadoban wrote: post #6
dmitriid wrote: post #3

None of these "innovative chats" that already use a browser to display them can even come up with the idea of tabs . Nope, they all insist on keeping everything inside a single window. So even if you have thread "for better communication with no noise", it still gets lost in all other threads, and they come up with workarounds like a dedicated page for threads etc. Just give me tabs, damnit.

Nothing does stop you from having multiple browser tabs open for Element. It is kind of wasteful and awkward though. I agree that this would be useful, though getting to ux nice might be challenging.

> It is kind of wasteful and awkward though.

It's not. If you have several conversations going on at the same time, what's awkward is having to switch between them in the same window.

Re: Introducing Threads in Beta

#22

Post by Arathorn »

brunoqc wrote: post #19

Are there still plans for Zulip-style threads? https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/pull/232...

Yes. The plan is for Matrix to support both arbitrarily deep threading (like https://matrix.org/blog/2020/12/18/introducing-cerulean does) - as well as Slack/Discord style threading. They have very different semantics; we added Slack style threading to Element first for familiarity and bridging with Slack, but I can’t wait for fully branchy threads to be in production too for bridging to Zulip (or HN ;P)

Re: Introducing Threads in Beta

#23

Post by jeroenhd »

godelski wrote: post #9

How do you all find element channels. I'm interested in trying matrix but I also haven't really found channels I'm that interested in.

Each home server has a room directory. You can rooms in your client (top left in Element, I believe) or you can try browsing this list: https://view.matrix.org/

Re: Introducing Threads in Beta

#24

Post by Yaina »

This is really cool. I love threads, especially in larger channels!

If there are no threads everyone just has to patiently wait in line, when there is one conversation going on.

Re: Introducing Threads in Beta

#25

Post by blauditore »

kadoban wrote: post #5
alanfranz wrote: post #2

I think threading in chat apps is a terrible idea. It’s a way to merge email and chat, but chat apps like Slack aren’t really suited for such replacement imho. Why threading if there’s not much noise? And if the noise is too much, maybe a public chat is not the best idea. on Slack, navigating a channel between “main” messages and thread messages is a nightmare, and since “main” messages are not just a subject, you sp…

I don't really see the issue with it. In Slack, we have a channel for our team. In that channel we have conversations, often more than one at a time, spread out over minutes to days. Why shouldn't each conversation have its own separate thread? The only real problem(s) I have with threads in Slack are: 1. some people suck at remembering to reply in thread. This isn't too serious though, once there's more than 2 messa…

Also, Slack's thread UI is terrible. If you click on a thread inside the main chat, you get this side bar, but only one thread at a time, and no way to get the same from anywhere else (e.g. from the threads notification/overview page).

Re: Introducing Threads in Beta

#26

Post by barnabee »

kadoban wrote: post #10
barnabee wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. I miss having multiple windows, each with one or more tabs, all respectful of my screen real estate! With most IRC clients or multi protocol chat programs you could have a couple of important channels always visible on a second monitor, key people you DM a lot in a tabbed window somewhere prominent, active chats open next to your work, and everything else in the main app window, minimised. Now we have a w…

> Now we have a website (wrapped in an app, if we’re lucky) with next to no layout control. It’s nothing short of a disastrous step backwards. This is true of Element, but you can have a Matrix client with any form you like. There already exist several. So it's not the most compelling criticism here IMO, because those who are using Element have chosen it over other options.

This is a fair point.

I still feel that my criticism applies to where the money and development effort seem to be focused, even for Matrix, but I am a big fan of Matrix overall and agree that it does at least have a variety of better clients.

It’d be great to see every Slack replaced with a Matrix server for sure.

Re: Introducing Threads in Beta

#27

Post by [deleted] »

Arathorn wrote: post #22
brunoqc wrote: post #19

Are there still plans for Zulip-style threads? https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/pull/232...

Yes. The plan is for Matrix to support both arbitrarily deep threading (like https://matrix.org/blog/2020/12/18/introducing-cerulean does) - as well as Slack/Discord style threading. They have very different semantics; we added Slack style threading to Element first for familiarity and bridging with Slack, but I can’t wait for fully branchy threads to be in production too for bridging to Zulip (or HN ;P)

[deleted]

Re: Introducing Threads in Beta

#28

Post by sandstrom »

What I'd prefer is the Twist-style threads (Zulip may also have them), where every room/channel must contain only topics/threads, and those topics have a title/description, and any messages in them are 1-level (no nested threading).

It looks like this:

    #office [room/channel]
       * Lunch [thread/topic]
         - Anyone wants to grab lunch today? [message]
         - Sure, I'll join! [message]
         - Me too! [message]
       * Printer doesn't work [thread/topic]
         - Anyone else having trouble with the printer? [message]
         - I fixed it an hour ago actually, try again [message]
         - Thanks, it works! [message]
         - (thread closed)
    #marketing [room/channel]
       * Website Update 2022 [thread/topic]
         - (posting images) [message]
         - Here is the new draft, let me know what you think! [message]
         - Looks good, but there are some spelling mistakes… [message]
         - Nice work! [message]
       - Adwords Campaign [thread/topic]
         - Here is a new adwords campaign structure. Let me know what you think! [message]
         - How about splitting by geografy and demographics? [message]
         - … [message]
         - … [message]
         - Alright, new campaign is live, thanks everyone! [message]
         - (thread closed)
We recently switched from Slack to Twist because they have this structure. Although Twist is worse in probably every dimension except for this, this structure is still so much better that we're overall happy with the move.

I wish Element/Matrix would support this. I suggested this during their RFC process, but unfortunately didn't capture enough attention. Perhaps it'll be added later.

Re: Introducing Threads in Beta

#29

Post by jeroenhd »

dmitriid wrote: post #3

None of these "innovative chats" that already use a browser to display them can even come up with the idea of tabs . Nope, they all insist on keeping everything inside a single window. So even if you have thread "for better communication with no noise", it still gets lost in all other threads, and they come up with workarounds like a dedicated page for threads etc. Just give me tabs, damnit.

I don't think your desire for tabbed windows is shared among the general public, to be honest; we've seen a trend away from early 2000s separate windows to full screen "experiences" and the general public doesn't seem to mind. This could be because all native applications have been simplified down to laggy web UIs designed for toddlers, but even in the typical nerd spaces the old stack of hierarchies has disappeared.

For what it's worth, Thunderbird is getting Matrix support and with its age come some of the old-fashioned design choices that might just end up giving you your tabs.

If all else fails, I'm afraid you're going to need to get enough people together to make your own chat UI. Maybe fork some open source messenger and show the world the advantages you're describing, because I don't think many people get the benefits.

That said, Element is very much not an innovative chat client. The federation protocol is what's innovative, the clients range from what look like modified IRC chats to Discord clones. The only areas where Matrix clients are innovative is where they're not being used to chat, as Matrix isn't exclusively a chat protocol.

Re: Introducing Threads in Beta

#30

Post by Arathorn »

sandstrom wrote: post #28

What I'd prefer is the Twist-style threads (Zulip may also have them), where every room/channel must contain only topics/threads, and those topics have a title/description, and any messages in them are 1-level (no nested threading). It looks like this: #office [room/channel] * Lunch [thread/topic] - Anyone wants to grab lunch today? [message] - Sure, I'll join! [message] - Me too! [message] * Printer doesn't work [th…

The hope is to add it later. The first cut is plain Slack-style threads, but we have MSCs for zulip/twist style threads like https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/pull/283... which will get built out as soon as we can.

Fun fact: the design for Element’s current threading is from a former Twist designer; make of that what you will :)

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