Live data from Hacker News

Google Killing Off Buzz and Code Search

googleblog.blogspot.com

81–90 of 148 posts

Re: Google Killing Off Buzz and Code Search

#81
post #48

I may be biased, but: I feel like Google's "geek cred" is slipping. It feels like PMs (and their "monetization strategies") are gaining control over at El Goog, shutting down anything that isn't "revenue positive". You can't measure geek cred. You can't measure the second-order effect of services like Code Search. So the slow slide of Google turning into "just another tech company" starts...

"You can't measure geek cred. You can't measure the second-order effect of services like Code Search." And so as a publicly owned, regulated, billion dollar corporation, it no longer make sense to commit unmeasured resources to support unmeasurable benefits.

And so as a publicly owned, regulated, billion dollar corporation, it no longer make sense to commit unmeasured resources to support unmeasurable benefits.

What's the point of making a billion dollars if it doesn't let you work on interesting things that don't offer any obvious immediate payoffs?

Re: Google Killing Off Buzz and Code Search

#82
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which means that both our company, and any other company, that thought it had a sustainable model for running such a project, and at this point would probably be "pretty awesome", never started, and we are all suddenly thrust back into 2005, unable to search for code. I see two viable reactions to this: 1. There's now a vacuum where Code Search was, and, evidently, some demand. Why not startup now? 2. Not even Google…

1) I am not whining as an entrepreneur that I did not start the company in 2005: I did other things that I am quite proud of, and which frankly have probably been more interesting and successful than having worked on that code searching mechanism. Instead, I am whining as a user of Google Code search that we have just lost six years of progress on searching source code. Having a company that starts today in this spac…

Given your bent on sustainable business models, Silicon Valley startups, VCs, and the effects of the existence of Google-like entities, you might find interesting Jaron Lanier's recent brain dump[1] on those topics and a little more. It's a one hour video, and the most immediately relevant topics are sort of far along, but there's a (cleaned-up, prosified) transcript available, too. (That might be a bonus in its own right, if you're someone who prefers to read rather than waiting on a speaker's own cadence and pauses.)

1. http://edge.org/conversation/the-local-global-flip

Re: Google Killing Off Buzz and Code Search

#83
post #71
post #44

So, in 2005 I was involved in a company that thought "man, it would be great to build a search engine for source code". I even started putting together components for it, such as a model for finding text inside of larger documents that had statistical properties similar to code, auto-detecting the language, so you could find code snippets inside of blog posts. However, by the time we got organized enough to actually…

I agree that when price of zero is bad in sense that it raises the users expectations to infinity (if you think of value/price) and this is bad for the echo system. On the other hand "free" allows everyone in the world with Internet access to use the service which is a very positive thing overal. IMO, the best model (in terms of impact, not in terms of business model necessarily) is a hybrid where you offer premium s…

I actually agree with the point of your comment: GitHub, to take one of your examples, seems to be a profitable business model. My reaction in this context, however, is that I do not feel like Google is trying to figure out a business model of any kind for most of its products.

To try to draw the difference, in the case of where Google offers free things, it seems to not have any relation at all to the things where it makes money: I don't think that by offering Google Code Search they got more people using Gmail or Google Search (things they monetize).

The best idea I've seen so far is that by doing large numbers of totally random fun/free things "for the world", users will always see them as "not evil", even though their core business model (aggregate information on users and use it to drive targeted advertisements) is the same as that of companies like DoubleClick (generally considered "evil").

(Which I found to be a hilariously awesome notion: that Google's random projects /are/ "freemium" in a sense, but where the upsell is more just a general notion of trying to dampen an overall negative connotation. As Google shuts down side projects, and concentrates on more controversial things like Google+, it will be interesting to see if they manage to maintain their "people don't think we are evil" status.)

(To try to be very clear: I do not consider advertising to be intrinsically evil, and am even sometimes involved in that space: do not take that previous comments to be indicative of a reaction I personally am having to their business models. Lots of people hated DoubleClick, lots of people seem to hate most ad companies, and yet people generally like Google: I think trying to analyze why is very interesting.)

...

Now, that aside, I think that there is still a bug (but find this to me more on the philosophical side): you can also view the freemium business model as a "tax" (subsidizing a general service by taking a cut of another area), and whether that tax makes sense or not becomes tricky. In the case of GitHub, their pricing for people who want private repositories is brutal, and those people are subsidizing the ecosystem of free projects that are using GitHub to host their code.

This, however, is not actually "sustainable": people on HN constantly complain about the cost of using GitHub for private repositories, and lament that there isn't something at GitHub's level competing with them that they can switch to, which won't cost them hundreds of dollars a month for what amounts to "almost no disk space or usage" (as GitHub bills per repository).

The problem here is that if you have a large free service that you are using to bootstrap your paid service, the paid service is in danger of being attacked, and being attacked hard: if nothing else, people who are offering the paid service competing with you aren't distracted by the free service (I am brutally aware of this bug, as my actual business has this problem; it is a little better for me, though: my market position is more similar to if GitHub also was the company that primarily developed git itself).

So, last week, BitBucket announced git support, and has what many people here consider to be reasonable pricing. I am now very curious how long it will take before people currently paying GitHub take strong enough notice (maybe requiring upgrades to BitBucket, delaying the process further), and start to switch.

When this happens, GitHub is no longer going to be able to extract the tax it currently extracts, and is going to be in the interesting position of having a large number of free users it is trying to support: people who now consider social version control to be something that is intrinsically free, and which large amounts of the open source ecosystem now rely on.

If that happens, it will be quite interesting to see how it goes down, and who gets effected in the market and ecosystem implosion that results.

Re: Google Killing Off Buzz and Code Search

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can't measure geek cred. You can't measure the second-order effect of services like Code Search." And so as a publicly owned, regulated, billion dollar corporation, it no longer make sense to commit unmeasured resources to support unmeasurable benefits.

And so as a publicly owned, regulated, billion dollar corporation, it no longer make sense to commit unmeasured resources to support unmeasurable benefits. What's the point of making a billion dollars if it doesn't let you work on interesting things that don't offer any obvious immediate payoffs?

I believe as a public company, the only point of making a billion dollars is shareholder value, by law. Before they went public they could indulge their geek kink until they went blind.

I'm not saying Code Search doesn't (necessarily) contribute to shareholder value. But it sure has to be easier to make the case for something that can be measured, as opposed to "geek goodwill."

Re: Google Killing Off Buzz and Code Search

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can't measure geek cred. You can't measure the second-order effect of services like Code Search." And so as a publicly owned, regulated, billion dollar corporation, it no longer make sense to commit unmeasured resources to support unmeasurable benefits.

What do you mean unmeasured resources? Look, I admit that you can't make good business decisions on Google's scale without using the data. That, however, is not Google's problem. It's also important to have vision and principles that everyone in the company understands, otherwise it's impossible to keep thousands of employees moving in the same direction. It would be very easy for Larry to make a decision like: "One…

"What do you mean unmeasured resources?"

Ah, sorry, I had saurik's comment in mind when I wrote that.

"2) I don't think Google even tries to make things sustainable. During all of these "Google shuts down X" that have been happened recently, some posts here by ex-Google people indicated that Google internally didn't even have reporting on per-project costs... hopefully now that they see how much certain things cost they will cause less market-level problems going forward."

Re: Google Killing Off Buzz and Code Search

#87
post #48

I may be biased, but: I feel like Google's "geek cred" is slipping. It feels like PMs (and their "monetization strategies") are gaining control over at El Goog, shutting down anything that isn't "revenue positive". You can't measure geek cred. You can't measure the second-order effect of services like Code Search. So the slow slide of Google turning into "just another tech company" starts...

"You can't measure geek cred. You can't measure the second-order effect of services like Code Search." And so as a publicly owned, regulated, billion dollar corporation, it no longer make sense to commit unmeasured resources to support unmeasurable benefits.

Well, by that rationale, every company should just zero out their advertising budgets.

Seriously though, I see what you're saying, but there isn't always a direct metric for everything. No one fully understands a variety of drug interactions within the body, but does that mean everyone should stop taking their pills? Likewise, when technology companies stop caring about the community that develops software for their product(s), although it doesn't immediately affect their bottom line, one can usually point to it as a contributing cause for their slow decline (think IBM, Microsoft, Oracle).

Re: Google Killing Off Buzz and Code Search

#88
post #48

I may be biased, but: I feel like Google's "geek cred" is slipping. It feels like PMs (and their "monetization strategies") are gaining control over at El Goog, shutting down anything that isn't "revenue positive". You can't measure geek cred. You can't measure the second-order effect of services like Code Search. So the slow slide of Google turning into "just another tech company" starts...

"You can't measure geek cred. You can't measure the second-order effect of services like Code Search." And so as a publicly owned, regulated, billion dollar corporation, it no longer make sense to commit unmeasured resources to support unmeasurable benefits.

The funny thing is that the supposedly mature "we're a public, billion dollar grown up corporation now" approach almost always ends up robbing the company of its ability to lead and innovate.

Google is neglecting products it's great at (eg GAE) to focus on areas it's completely clueless about (like Google+). There's no real risk here, the ads are going to continue pumping cash in, but it's slowly becoming a big dumb company.

My bet is that within 2 years they will buy someone like Twitter or FourSquare for n*$100m, and you'll know the new AOL has arrived.

Re: Google Killing Off Buzz and Code Search

#89
post #44

So, in 2005 I was involved in a company that thought "man, it would be great to build a search engine for source code". I even started putting together components for it, such as a model for finding text inside of larger documents that had statistical properties similar to code, auto-detecting the language, so you could find code snippets inside of blog posts. However, by the time we got organized enough to actually…

If anyone can come up with a law that basically forces companies who give up on free products to open source the code they no longer use, that would lead to amazing opportunities!

Re: Google Killing Off Buzz and Code Search

#90
post #44

So, in 2005 I was involved in a company that thought "man, it would be great to build a search engine for source code". I even started putting together components for it, such as a model for finding text inside of larger documents that had statistical properties similar to code, auto-detecting the language, so you could find code snippets inside of blog posts. However, by the time we got organized enough to actually…

Reminds me of this story. Substitute Apple for Google and Panic for you:

http://www.panic.com/extras/audionstory/

Excerpts:

We [at Panic] also seem to remember that Jobs painted us a vibrant (but genuinely honest) picture of how he viewed Audion [our product] fairing against iTunes:

"It's like you guys are a little push-cart going down the railroad tracks, and we're a giant steam engine about to run you down."

  ***
I remember [Jobs] asked, "Do you have any other ideas for apps you want to work on?"

I replied, genuinely, "Well, we've got an idea for a digital photo management program..." and he replied with a simple, "Yeah. Don't do that one."

Everyone in the room laughed but I had no idea why — remember, my head was still exploding — so Steven Frank had to explain to me that he meant, basically, it was already being made and, of course, it would be called iPhoto. Oh. I get it now.

Post reply on HN