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Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

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Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#551

Throwaway. I'm happy to have more women in tech and hope it occurs or continues. However, virtually everyone recruiting in tech has observed some toxic diversity initiatives, I would venture. Some examples I have seen personally or one degree removed from me. - pressure on HMs to hire more women despite 95% of applicants being male - people in interview panels openly saying "but he's a white man" / "do we want to hir…

To add to your list: - referral bonuses, but only for diversity hires - hiring freezes, except diversity hires

Referral bonus to fix a problem of a funnel ... Does not sound wrong. Sound actually very smart.

Hiring freezes except diversity hires ... Sounds wrong.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#553

My sense is that most responses here are only to the title of the submission (the actual article title is "Gender discrimination in hiring: An experimental reexamination of the Swedish case"). Skimming through said actual article, it looks like the "against men" hiring discrimination is ~completely driven by this: "...In female-dominated occupations such as cleaner, childcare provider, preschool teacher, accounting c…

> Which sure sounds to me like "employers try to fill low-status, low-pay, often-crappy female-dominated jobs with yet more females". That reflects an outmoded view of the labor market. These are good jobs for people who lack a college degree. Lots of the women in my wife's family have similar jobs. It's not like their brothers-- i.e. men from similar educational and class backgrounds--are becoming doctors instead of…

Yes, to a degree. But there are quite a few male-dominated fields with similar career prospects - semi-skilled building trades, road construction, sanitation work, truck driver, etc., etc. And there are often male niches within the female-dominated jobs - for adult patients who may be infirm, any decent-sized health facility will need some larger & more muscular workers (very likely male) on every nursing shift.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty dismissive of the men who want to work in what you consider low status crappy jobs. There are plenty of men out there who expressly go to school with the goal of being an educator, for example. The discrimination those men face is very real. It's ok to admit that there are some areas society has decided men shouldn't work in. It doesn't diminish the struggles of anyone else

Yes and no. For instance - there's generally a big gap between "go to school with the goal of being an educator", and being a preschool teacher. At least in the U.S., the latter tends to offer far lower status, pay, job security, etc. than being (say) a 7th grade teacher. Between the low desirability, high turnover, and "we must fill the opening" nature of most bottom-end, female-dominated jobs, I'd guess that the an…

>> I'd guess that the anti-male discrimination is a fairly weak barrier to men who really want those jobs

Is this not the opposite of the line you quoted from the study?

>> "... positive employer response rates were much higher for women than for men."

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#555
post #530
post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on what you mean by "transition". It's probably hard to transition from a software engineer to a licensed structural engineer or the like. But it's much easier to transfer into a software or software-adjacent role related to the field. Those fields have lots of opportunity for controls engineers, or data acquisition system developers, or data scientists, or even developing home-grown applications. The flip…

Sounds a bit like they might put you in the IT rather than the engineering department if you come in as a SE. Control is far outside the ballpark of a typical SE, unless you happen to have studied EE (which is arguably just another one of the 'hard' engineering fields). Sounds like short of having a relevant degree you won't be an engineer in those areas, and very few people get those mid-career. An area that people…

Like I said, it's anecdotal, but I've known people who've transitioned to those fields. There is sometimes an issue of conflating IT to CS, but the converse seems to happen much more in my (again, anecdotal) experience. In that case a mediocre engineer with some software experience is crammed into an IT role because the engineering team doesn't really want them. If a SE adds a lot of value to an engineering team they are usually very reluctant to give them up.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 50+, and perhaps I've just been lucky...but its not been an issue for me. I got my last job 18 months ago and I'm looking now. I think a lot of what people think is ageism, is wageism.. but that's just a hunch. In my experience, if you work in areas with enough demand - its not an issue (eg you work the 'ends' of tech - really old or really new). If the demand isn't there, they probably don't want to pay for a se…

Off topic, but this is the first time I’ve seen your username. I would love to compare sometime how we both came to such similar kinda odd usernames, haha.

you mean... a mech uprising! :-P

I think it was mech warrior or something in my case...

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which sure sounds to me like "employers try to fill low-status, low-pay, often-crappy female-dominated jobs with yet more females". That reflects an outmoded view of the labor market. These are good jobs for people who lack a college degree. Lots of the women in my wife's family have similar jobs. It's not like their brothers-- i.e. men from similar educational and class backgrounds--are becoming doctors instead of…

Yes, to a degree. But there are quite a few male-dominated fields with similar career prospects - semi-skilled building trades, road construction, sanitation work, truck driver, etc., etc. And there are often male niches within the female-dominated jobs - for adult patients who may be infirm, any decent-sized health facility will need some larger & more muscular workers (very likely male) on every nursing shift.

Those jobs are generally more physically demanding and dangerous, to offset the slightly higher pay. After my FIL dropped out of college, he worked as a window washer and forklift driver. Yes these are "male-dominated fields" but that's not because women are applying to these jobs and being excluded. Also, these jobs have been much harder hit by illegal immigration than most corresponding jobs for women.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#558
post #523
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Viewpoint diversity is very, very important. But for a large contingent of the workforce, their viewpoints are already represented in the numerous implicit and ideological supports that our society has developed, without them even needing to be present: this is called "hegemony". If you do not acknowledge this is the case, then DEI efforts can seem very unfair. But one should be careful not to allow emotions and sens…

DEI is never focused on viewpoint diversity, though, it's focused on racial, ethnic, gender, disability, etc diversity. The latter kind of diversity does not imply the former. > one should be careful not to allow emotions and sensitivities to creep in, to do the ideological work for you Attributing all questioning/resistance of DEI to emotions and sensitivities is pretty condescending. GP was clear and reasoned about…

> DEI is never focused on viewpoint diversity, though, it's focused on racial, ethnic, gender, disability, etc diversity. The latter kind of diversity does not imply the former.

I strongly agree, but then, how do you measure the diversity a person will contribute before you have incorporated that person into your organization? Obviously a moving target like "viewpoint diversity" cannot be acquired in that setting, so we resort to proxy measures. I would say race and class diversity achieves that better than alternatives.

> Attributing all questioning/resistance of DEI to emotions and sensitivities is pretty condescending.

Didn't imply "all", but it is certainly a factor, just as it is a factor in literally every other concern. As well, it is certainly no worse than the bad faith, straw man arguments all across this post, so in the interest of equity let's make sure to point those out, too.

> Ideology should be nowhere near this.

Ideology is everywhere, all of the time... it's the stuff worldviews are made of. My point in the previous comment was specifically about the chronic lack of acknowledgment of that very crucial issue, and the resulting line of criticism that starts from an inappropriate place. Of course, someone who believes their viewpoint is natural, inevitable, or rational will reject this concern as irrelevant. That is the treachery of ideology -- everything you say and do is contextualized on your own personal model, so much so that it is like the stories of the fishes talking about the water. It is so all-encompassing that it cannot be distinguished until your own exposure to a critical mass of alternative viewpoints has made it clear just how few people you share a common ground with.

The backlash we see here and elsewhere against DEI is coming from those who are insulated from truly alternative viewpoints to the point that they cannot conceive of valid arguments for the other side. They judge the validity based on their brand of rationality which is of course correlated very strongly to the kinds of things they have exposed themselves to thus far.

There is no diversity in seeing a million faces and meeting a million people, if those people already think and speak with concepts derived from the same foundational framework as you. Disagreeing about how many cops to have is a policy issue; disagreeing about whether to have cops is still basically outside the Overton window, so people have not really been exposed to the substantive arguments at scale that make a conversation about that productive. The aim of DEI is to bring that conversation into the workplace, where real material consequences are felt and where everyone is together (ostensibly) working in good faith toward a common goal. It is saddening but not surprising to see the reaction to this initiative.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#559
post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think DEI efforts can greatly vary. I know that we've worked really hard to ensure that we don't disadvantage anyone -- but it's harder than it sounds. DEI is often dealing in zero sum spaces. For example, most of the staff is white males. We try hard to hire the best person for the role, but we've instituted a policy where we mandate interviewing underrepresented groups. Not that we will hire them, but that we wil…

So are you suggesting that some poor people have the wrong interests on certain issues and they need to fix that? Which issues specifically? I do agree that we should try to be inclusive on interviewing. It's always good to have more candidates to pick from, as long as the process doesn't last too long.

> So are you suggesting that some poor people have the wrong interests on certain issues and they need to fix that? Which issues specifically?

Here I meant that often times issues are raised specifically as race issues, when really you can make the issue more inclusive and get better traction. For example, Black Lives Matter. While I can understand wanting to make the focus on race, it is hard to get traction on that beyond lip service. But if you make it about police accountability in general -- you suddenly find that you get much broader support across the board. And while there may be some nuance that you can't capture with this, you'll find that you'll still make more overall progress even as it applies to Blacks.

The same applies for just about any issue related to poverty. If you make it about race, it becomes divisive. If you make it about just helping anyone in poverty then it has much more general appeal.

Raising all boats is important. It's also important, and maybe this is where DEI's most important role can be, to track that some classes of boats aren't being systemically left behind -- and adjust policy, not to benefit specific groups, but to make sure all groups are benefitting (within some degree of proportionality).

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty dismissive of the men who want to work in what you consider low status crappy jobs. There are plenty of men out there who expressly go to school with the goal of being an educator, for example. The discrimination those men face is very real. It's ok to admit that there are some areas society has decided men shouldn't work in. It doesn't diminish the struggles of anyone else

Yes and no. For instance - there's generally a big gap between "go to school with the goal of being an educator", and being a preschool teacher. At least in the U.S., the latter tends to offer far lower status, pay, job security, etc. than being (say) a 7th grade teacher. Between the low desirability, high turnover, and "we must fill the opening" nature of most bottom-end, female-dominated jobs, I'd guess that the an…

> I'd guess that the anti-male discrimination is a fairly weak barrier to men who really want those jobs.

Based on what? For example, my wife and I have hired au pairs for many years. There are some men in the program, but almost no families will hire them. We certainly wouldn't. I'd imagine lots of care-adjacent fields are like that.

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