Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

journals.plos.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

541–550 of 666 posts

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#541

Post by icsa »

spaetzleesser wrote: post #346
nabaraz wrote: post #67

During my career, I've seen enough discrimination in the name of DEI as well. But what bothers me more is the ageism. The number of times an old person has been rejected from a job is too damn high. The reasons have always been "he may not work well with young people", "seniority complex", "he is over qualified" etc. Most of the times, they were more than qualified. I fear when I am into 40s or 50s, I will face the s…

All the DEI brochures I have seen show young good looking people with different skin colors. There are no disabled people, no ugly people, no fat people, no old people.

And no political conservatives.

I'm apolitcal, personally, and welcome all points of view in my personal life.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#542

Post by mech4bg »

mech422 wrote: post #359
nabaraz wrote: post #67

During my career, I've seen enough discrimination in the name of DEI as well. But what bothers me more is the ageism. The number of times an old person has been rejected from a job is too damn high. The reasons have always been "he may not work well with young people", "seniority complex", "he is over qualified" etc. Most of the times, they were more than qualified. I fear when I am into 40s or 50s, I will face the s…

I'm 50+, and perhaps I've just been lucky...but its not been an issue for me. I got my last job 18 months ago and I'm looking now. I think a lot of what people think is ageism, is wageism.. but that's just a hunch. In my experience, if you work in areas with enough demand - its not an issue (eg you work the 'ends' of tech - really old or really new). If the demand isn't there, they probably don't want to pay for a se…

Off topic, but this is the first time I’ve seen your username. I would love to compare sometime how we both came to such similar kinda odd usernames, haha.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#543

Post by [deleted] »

ponow wrote: post #458
SamReidHughes wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are biological reasons for this, since males are more disposable than females for reproduction. Think of one rooster for a dozen hens - this is still a viable flock, even if the other roosters get eaten. Note that birds do not have mammalian sex chromosomes - males have ZZ and females have ZW - and females have been measured to have greater variability in birds. So there is not really a biological reason as y…

If we can repeatedly find differences in variance despite similarity of mean for different sexes within a species or other groupings, then that would be a kind of thing that would be reported in biology research.

[deleted]

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#544

Post by LeroyRaz »

uoaei wrote: post #395
sdsaga12 wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hear hear. If your conception of diversity doesn't include viewpoint diversity, you are operating within a prejudicial, small-minded, small-hearted, and regressive framework. If you belive the most salient details about a person can be read from their appearance, you are a bigot. This cuts every which way, but many want to pretend it's not true for their own biases. This includes seeing someone with blue hair and a p…

Viewpoint diversity is very, very important. But for a large contingent of the workforce, their viewpoints are already represented in the numerous implicit and ideological supports that our society has developed, without them even needing to be present: this is called "hegemony". If you do not acknowledge this is the case, then DEI efforts can seem very unfair. But one should be careful not to allow emotions and sens…

The point is that DEI groups can seem very homogeneous, without diverse viewpoints, and they can weild large amounts of power.

Posters above you have illustrated how issues of DEI are not investigated, if they happen to not fit into the agenda of the DEI group, e.g. examples of Ageism, or things that discriminate against rather than for white men. Such effects exist, as the OP article illustrates.

To say that the DEI groups don't need any white voices because they are some form of silent majority is to elevat the white voice too, which itself seems inequitable and problematic wherever you stand.

What is your point? As you seem to have not engaged with the viewpoints above, it seems you are more reacting against perceived sentiment, rather than trying to discuss ideas

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#545

Post by bell-cot »

idiotsecant wrote: post #485
bell-cot wrote: post #470

My sense is that most responses here are only to the title of the submission (the actual article title is "Gender discrimination in hiring: An experimental reexamination of the Swedish case"). Skimming through said actual article, it looks like the "against men" hiring discrimination is ~completely driven by this: "...In female-dominated occupations such as cleaner, childcare provider, preschool teacher, accounting c…

This is pretty dismissive of the men who want to work in what you consider low status crappy jobs. There are plenty of men out there who expressly go to school with the goal of being an educator, for example. The discrimination those men face is very real. It's ok to admit that there are some areas society has decided men shouldn't work in. It doesn't diminish the struggles of anyone else

Yes and no. For instance - there's generally a big gap between "go to school with the goal of being an educator", and being a preschool teacher. At least in the U.S., the latter tends to offer far lower status, pay, job security, etc. than being (say) a 7th grade teacher.

Between the low desirability, high turnover, and "we must fill the opening" nature of most bottom-end, female-dominated jobs, I'd guess that the anti-male discrimination is a fairly weak barrier to men who really want those jobs. Apply a bunch of time, especially when unemployment is low, and it's pretty likely that you'll be hired because they had no acceptable alternative. Or (say) a preschool wanted to have one male teacher, to be a social role model for little boys. Or (I have seen this done) a bookkeeping dept. wanted a couple males, to dial down the social drama that they experienced with a all-female clerkforce.

And for those concerned less about individual rights (to get the job one really wants, etc.) than about the larger-scale social downsides of discrimination, making it more difficult for men to obtain some types of low-status, low-pay jobs is a "pretty weak poison".

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#546

Post by SamReidHughes »

james-bcn wrote: post #338
SamReidHughes wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are biological reasons for this, since males are more disposable than females for reproduction. Think of one rooster for a dozen hens - this is still a viable flock, even if the other roosters get eaten. Note that birds do not have mammalian sex chromosomes - males have ZZ and females have ZW - and females have been measured to have greater variability in birds. So there is not really a biological reason as y…

I've not come across this before ("males have ZZ and females have ZW - and females have been measured to have greater variability in birds"). Do you have some references/books you can recommend? I'd like to find out more.

For example there is this paper on repeated differences in variance for different sexes in different groupings:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/evo.12224

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#547

Post by ipaddr »

jaywalk wrote: post #347
waterhouse wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a strange thing for the adjective "diverse" to apply to a single human, in any case. It's a descriptor that applies to groups ; the only way I can see it applying to one human is with genetic mosaicism or something.

In this case, "diverse" simply means "not a white male."

Or Indian men

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#548

Post by Manuel_D »

telomero22 wrote: post #367
codelord wrote: post #295

It's interesting to me people make all sort of assertions about why men or women are dominant in an industry without anyway to falsify their hypothesis. I provide some data points having lived in several countries that may offer some insight. Draw your own conclusions. I got my undergrad degree in Iran (a relatively conservative society with an ultra-conservative even anti-women government), where the ratio of women…

It's because in poor and conservative countries women must choose a high paying job if they want to escape oppression and arranged marriage. However, the more egalitarian and wealthy a country is, the more women are free to choose which job they like most and they are not so interested in Engineering it seems. EDIT: Ha, looks like this is just a Jordan Peterson false claim. Women seem to be strongly represented in sc…

There is merit to this claim: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more...

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#549

Post by jrsj »

ipaddr wrote: post #534
jrsj wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sat next to a guy who once complained that our new Pakistani CTO fired our black coworker for no reason (he was a top performer but was called “lazy”) and then proceeded to fire 3 Indians and only bring Pakistani candidates to the final round of interviews. He was called racist for pointing this out by HR (all white women) and he was the next person to be fired and replaced by a Pakistani developer. Moral of the st…

That would be a good lawsuit case.

Difficult to do because when you want to do something like this there are a lot of tools that can be used to cover up for the behavior. There was a paper trail of “evidence” created that would give them a degree of protection. This particular company was also acquired by a very large corporation shortly after & odds of winning a lawsuit against them are basically 0.

This wasn’t the only thing they did either. They had to sell the company on not particularly favorable terms so they also invented a lot of reasons to get rid of people just before their stock options vested. Basically everyone but the 5 people at the top got fucked.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#550

Post by Jabbles »

satokema wrote: post #529
Jabbles wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chess statistics do not show evidence of a significant difference: https://en.chessbase.com/post/what-gender-gap-in-chess

"(6.1%) were female" This article doesn't prove the point you thought you were making.

Your comment is so ambiguous that I'm not sure how to interpret it, but I encourage you to read the article completely, as the number you quoted is not part of the conclusion.
Post reply on HN