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Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

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Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#421

Post by rdl »

It's pretty amazing how useful working with the military has been in changing my views of a lot of groups/demographics. I probably would have assumed nurses = female almost entirely, but there were a lot of nurses who were male, both the specialty types and more generalist nurses.

(Also, I grew up in a suburb where it was basically "different white ethnicities", with the exception of some black students from nearby poor areas bused in as part of our special education program (since we were rich and had lots of resources comparatively.). I then went to school at MIT which is basically white/asian predominately (although a fair number of international students.). Then Bay Area which is again basically white/asian in tech occupations. In the military, especially outside combat arms, there's genuine racial and geographic diversity across a lot of roles; good and bad people of every type. IMO, a useful experience.)

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#422

Post by jrsj »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #387
robonerd wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporate DEI has laws backing it, but I don't think that's the full picture. Corporations have a genuine economic interest in diverse hiring even if those laws didn't exist: 1) Diverse hiring expands the labor pool, which suppresses wages. 2) Diverse labor organizes less effectively, particularly if the workers can be kept on edge around each other.

I don't doubt that it's not the full picture, but I'm skeptical about your theory. My $0.02: Regarding (1), it only expands the labor pool if the pipeline for "diverse" labor hasn't already been exhausted. Instead we seem to see employers competing for "diverse" labor, including in some cases foregoing technical qualifications for "diverse" qualifications. This is only in the company's best interest to the extent tha…

For 2) corporations themselves may not be doing it with that in mind but when management consultants like McKinsey etc began pushing for this stuff I absolutely believe it was a consideration.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#423

Post by ponow »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #274
rmbyrro wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what, let'em choose to work with whoever they want. If it's all women, so be it. Only men? Whatever. I don't wanna work in either of these organizations. I think the best answer to these divisive, sexist or racist behaviors is to show them in practice they're dumb, kick their ass in the market. An open-minded, welcoming organization is going to attract the best minds. Collectively, these people will kick those ide…

The challenge I have with this is that performance in "the market" does not correlate so easily with the kind of team composition the GP is talking about. And as someone who has worked for large corporations, these companies rarely seem to suffer that much from dysfunctional teams and rotten eggs in key places. >"The only sustainable way forward is to let reality teach them. If we try to impose change like this, it'l…

> The challenge I have with this is that performance in "the market" does not correlate so easily with the kind of team composition

But clearly, hiring nominally asserts that it seeks the strongest applications. So it's contradicting itself with DEI discrimination.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#424

Post by bluGill »

FFRefresh wrote: post #384
georgeburdell wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> During my career, I've seen enough discrimination in the name of DEI as well. At my work recently, we interviewed a white male and an asian female for the job. To my knowledge, this is the first female applicant we've gotten because they generally get snapped up by higher prestige/visibility roles. I've interviewed many people before, and the manager will request feedback about the applicants and use whichever had…

I've also seen similar behavior on interview loops. I also would love for there to be fear of engaging in illegal discriminatory behavior for companies. However, as an individual person, the cost/benefit equation on whistleblowing just seems so so bad. It just doesn't seem worth it as an individual. If these illegal things are going to be pushed back against, it seems like it'll need to be a coordinated/collective ac…

Whistle blowing is legally protected. So if you do it keep a lawyer on hand so you can sue them latter when they retaliate.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#425

Post by [deleted] »

JCM9 wrote: post #184

There are very concerning patterns developing at the moment in the DEI space. DEI efforts, and often those leading them, are increasingly the most biased and close minded parts of the organization. Spreading selected stereotypes and often solving concerns about “discrimination” by being very biased and inequitable. For example at my last company a report showed that slightly fewer of a certain minority were promoted.…

[deleted]

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#426

Post by TulliusCicero »

throwaway0wha8h wrote: post #150
jedimastert wrote: post #50

This comment section is gonna be a RIDE... To actually comment on the topic at hand: the reason there's still male-dominated spaces is that women are weeded out far earlier than the hiring stage. See, for example, statistics about women in STEM and especially computer science and realize that hiring managers don't even have to be sexist for male-dominated fields to exist, even though they still are.

The assumption in the "weeded out" rhetoric is that girls are on their way into tech in equal numbers and diverted out by some experience or more nefarious dissuasion. This has not been sufficiently demonstrated and usually is presented without evidence. It's unclear what people make of the fact that certain STEM disciplines, say Biology or other Life Sciences, have an over-representation of women. Curious why the "w…

Well, there usually is some kind of evidence, but it's generally anecdotal, people reporting instances of obvious sexism that they observed.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#427

Post by commandlinefan »

t0mas88 wrote: post #382
fallingknife wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I'll be voting Republican

I'm not American, so I'm not as deep into the exact political party differences, but why do you think that's the solution?

> do you think that's the solution?

I don't think it is and I don't think they'll actually do much about it, but at least they're saying they're opposed to it.

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#428

Post by [deleted] »

fallingknife wrote: post #343
JCM9 wrote: post #184

There are very concerning patterns developing at the moment in the DEI space. DEI efforts, and often those leading them, are increasingly the most biased and close minded parts of the organization. Spreading selected stereotypes and often solving concerns about “discrimination” by being very biased and inequitable. For example at my last company a report showed that slightly fewer of a certain minority were promoted.…

This is why I'll be voting Republican

[deleted]

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#429

Post by earleybird »

vageli wrote: post #177
imiric wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Work remotely and anonymously. Let the quality of your work shine through so that age becomes irrelevant. There aren't many such roles, but with remote work gaining popularity, they're becoming more of an option.

What jobs are hiring individuals anonymously?

Perhaps parent meant private, as in keeping your age private as it wouldn't make sense to be anonymous if your expecting to be paid :-)

Re: Hiring discrimination: a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

#430

Post by Manuel_D »

colinmhayes wrote: post #355
Manuel_D wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women's representation in tech matches the graduation rates of relevant fields. Which matches the rates at which women indicate tech as their preferred field in high school and middle school. I think it's in incorrect to say that they're "weeded out". That implies that women are being removed from the field, rather than exercising their own agency and choosing different fields.

> rather than exercising their own agency There is no free will. Society implanting ideas about which jobs you are capable of succeeding at is an especially obvious case of this. Why do you think women are going into different fields?

On the whole, the weaker the gender roles in society the lower women's representation are in STEM [1]. I'm nearly 30 and there was ample messaging to try and get girls into technology when I was in elementary school decades ago. I disagree that society is implanting ideas in girls that they're not capable of succeeding in tech. This is a disparity that persists despite ample efforts to try and encourage girls to go into tech.

1. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more...

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