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A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

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Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#531

Post by _carbyau_ »

phs318u wrote: post #432
vimy wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true in Western Europe. They are heavily overrepresented in crime statistics and their own communities have grown big enough that there’s no need anymore to try to fit in.

What follows is a generalisation from the Australian experience (my experience - I'm a child of first gen migrants i.e. a 2nd generation Australian). For the first generation and some of the second generation this is true. Migrants often don't know the language, and don't have pre-existing connections in the community, so they tend to cluster in areas where there are more people like them (often cheaper places to liv…

As a fellow aussie with caucasian lineage from 1800's I grew up a few generations on the "already settled" side of this equation. I'd like to think I'm not racist but I struggle with being a product of my environment in a competitive world too. Your insight is appreciated.

The only other weird thing is how immigrants can pick on each other as much as any racist aussie seems to. I would have thought having gone through it would make people more sensitive to flinging that crap. But I guess the "product of environment + competitive social pressures" gets to us all.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#532

Post by asoneth »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #400
asoneth wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Motor-vehicle crashes account for 20%[1] of child and adolescent deaths in the US. I'm not nearly as terrified of strangers or homeless drug users as the legion of SUV drivers scrolling on their cell phones. Distracted drivers are several orders of magnitude more dangerous and several orders of magnitude more common. [1] from 2016 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6637963/

>Motor-vehicle crashes account for 20%[1] of child and adolescent deaths in the US. Yep, 20% of something that almost never happens. .025% of adolescents die each year, .005% of them due to motor vehicle crashes. Further, the paper suggests most of adolescent vehicle deaths happen as passengers and/or drivers.

Note that this number only includes fatalities. Injuries are typically a couple orders of magnitude more common than fatalities (both for bystanders and occupants) but they are harder to count as they are not tracked as consistently. Besides the lasting damage, in a place like the US they can be financially ruinous for a family.

(I would be interested in statistics that break out bystander vs occupant and injuries as well if you know of any.)

Finally, I'm not quite sure what your point is with respect to the overall fatality rate of adolescents. It should not be particularly surprising that the vast majority of children survive into adulthood in modern times, but that doesn't mean it's not worth continuing to take precautions against the most common sources of injury and death.

I've been involved in various "free-range kids" groups and kid-friendly maker spaces where children can learn to responsibly use power tools. But I've never met a parent who decided not to bother protecting their kids from the most common sources of injury or death just because childhood deaths "almost never happen". Frankly I'm not sure I'd let someone with such an interpretation of statistics anywhere near either kids or power tools.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#534

Post by EE84M3i »

Johnny555 wrote: post #291

My wife grew up in Japan and starting when she was 4, her regular errand was walking a few blocks down to the corner store alone to get her dad a beer, she was allowed to buy a small treat for herself with the change. She did say that culture has changed since then and few parents would allow a 4 year old to do an errand like that alone anymore.

Japan is pretty lax about age verification for buying alcohol (you still even see some alcohol vending machines) but I'd be at least a little surprised if a 4 year old could buy a beer in a konbini today - but maybe the staff would make an exception if you're a regular customer.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#535

Post by phs318u »

_carbyau_ wrote: post #531
phs318u wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What follows is a generalisation from the Australian experience (my experience - I'm a child of first gen migrants i.e. a 2nd generation Australian). For the first generation and some of the second generation this is true. Migrants often don't know the language, and don't have pre-existing connections in the community, so they tend to cluster in areas where there are more people like them (often cheaper places to liv…

As a fellow aussie with caucasian lineage from 1800's I grew up a few generations on the "already settled" side of this equation. I'd like to think I'm not racist but I struggle with being a product of my environment in a competitive world too. Your insight is appreciated. The only other weird thing is how immigrants can pick on each other as much as any racist aussie seems to. I would have thought having gone throug…

Haha indeed! Plenty of racist immigrants, more so among 2nd/3rd generation (then it all becomes a bit of a blur). It still churns my stomach to hear adult children of migrants - some of my peers, who themselves have done quite well - making disparaging comments about newcomers e.g. "they live on top of each other!", "they don't make an effort to assimilate!" etc - forgetting that they are describing the stories of our parents and grandparents (many of whom can still barely speak English). People have short memories and little empathy for "others"/"strangers" I guess.

I think the frustration of "competitive social pressures" combined with a desire for "simple solutions" is an achilles heel that gets ruthlessly exploited by fear mongers and outrage merchants, who use racist dog whistles to translate the resulting fear/anger into political capital. It appeals to the reptilian/emotive parts of our brain, and is very, very hard to shift via appeals to reason.(Don't know about you, but I can't wait for this election to be over just so I don't have to see another UAP billboard or cop another UAP robocall).

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#536

Post by ryan_lane »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #504
ryan_lane wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. There are some rural towns where every single town member, including the police, firefighters, etc. are addicted to meth. Rural areas are where most meth is cooked because it makes it considerably less likely to be detected. A considerable amount of heroin addicts in the US are also in rural areas. Drug use is rampant in rural areas, but it doesn't get the press that it does in cities, because it doesn't present…

Which are some of these towns? I assume you're not talking about one of those towns with two residents (either way it doesn't mean that any rural area probably has more than half the residents using or making meth which is obviously balderdash, I'm just curious about these alleged towns).

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/10/25/6561928...

https://www.kait8.com/2020/02/21/arkansas-leads-us-meth-use-...

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#537

Post by _carbyau_ »

phs318u wrote: post #535
_carbyau_ wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a fellow aussie with caucasian lineage from 1800's I grew up a few generations on the "already settled" side of this equation. I'd like to think I'm not racist but I struggle with being a product of my environment in a competitive world too. Your insight is appreciated. The only other weird thing is how immigrants can pick on each other as much as any racist aussie seems to. I would have thought having gone throug…

Haha indeed! Plenty of racist immigrants, more so among 2nd/3rd generation (then it all becomes a bit of a blur). It still churns my stomach to hear adult children of migrants - some of my peers, who themselves have done quite well - making disparaging comments about newcomers e.g. "they live on top of each other!", "they don't make an effort to assimilate!" etc - forgetting that they are describing the stories of ou…

That second paragraph resonates. Particularly "simple solutions". To some degree I wonder if the modern pace of change is a destablising force in peoples lives too, which is why they want simple solutions.

With UAP, irksome as they are, I take consolation knowing the money they spent to reach me is money wasted and not spent reaching someone else. Somewhat spiteful I guess, and not healthy but is what it is.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#538

Post by namose »

rglullis wrote: post #498
CogitoCogito wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course it is extremist thinking! We are talking about the survival of your own children, not some utility maximization function. Extremist thinking does not improve the likelihood of your children's survival. > Imagine a game of Russian Roulette with one bullet in a gigantic chamber (N slots) where you get to win a small prize every time the gun doesn't fire. Is there any sense in asking if there is a N large en…

Like I said, this is not a maximization function. It is a filter. The idea is to avoid things where the upside (even if highly likely) is small but the downside is (even if highly unlikely) catastrophic. > You do this all the time when you take your kids for a drive, on a plane, outside, when you feed them, etc. Kids need to go outside, occasionally get on a car or plane and they certainly need to be fed. These are a…

The whole point of the article is that the benefits are actually enormous.

I think we also need to consider other, less obvious bullets here, namely suicide, or even just a less happy and fulfilling life. Kids have been getting less happy year over year in America and while there are likely many reasons, I strongly believe the inability to be independent is one. I won’t claim to know the best age to let kids wander a city street (and it likely depends on the neighborhood), but when you let them out on their own, you also potentially prevent suicide, something that’s far more likely to kill a kid than a stranger.

https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/04/amer...

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#539

Post by throwawaylinux »

ryan_lane wrote: post #536
throwawaylinux wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which are some of these towns? I assume you're not talking about one of those towns with two residents (either way it doesn't mean that any rural area probably has more than half the residents using or making meth which is obviously balderdash, I'm just curious about these alleged towns).

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/10/25/6561928... https://www.kait8.com/2020/02/21/arkansas-leads-us-meth-use-...

I don't know what you're trying to tell me so I'll have to guess... you're retracting your initial claims after reading the data and anecdotes in those links?

Because from those links it sure doesn't look like rural areas are likely to have more than half the people on meth, or that you've managed to find any actual towns where everybody is on meth.

Re: A 4-year-old can run errands alone and not just on reality TV

#540

Post by rglullis »

namose wrote: post #538
rglullis wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, this is not a maximization function. It is a filter. The idea is to avoid things where the upside (even if highly likely) is small but the downside is (even if highly unlikely) catastrophic. > You do this all the time when you take your kids for a drive, on a plane, outside, when you feed them, etc. Kids need to go outside, occasionally get on a car or plane and they certainly need to be fed. These are a…

The whole point of the article is that the benefits are actually enormous. I think we also need to consider other, less obvious bullets here, namely suicide, or even just a less happy and fulfilling life. Kids have been getting less happy year over year in America and while there are likely many reasons, I strongly believe the inability to be independent is one. I won’t claim to know the best age to let kids wander a…

I am not disagreeing with the article, and I definitely agree with you that the american combo of (a) suburbia, (b) car-oriented urban planning and (c) heterogeneous/low inner-trust communities makes for a horrible existence for kids and teenagers.

My point though is that there are ways to develop kids' sense of autonomy without putting them in unnecessary risk, and also that while the benefit of letting them walk by themselves depends on many repetitions of the event (i.e, doing it once a year is not really that helpful), it takes only one single dangerous/malicious person to cause irreversible damage.

And yes, of course this depends on the neighborhood. I wouldn't object the kids roaming around if we lived in a smaller city or a generally nicer area of Berlin, but I could not in good conscience say that any parent should feel totally fine in letting 5 year-olds by themselves in any area full of homeless people and mentally unstable people, and justify it with "most homeless people are just people in terrible situations".

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