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ISPs can’t find any judges who will block California net neutrality law

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Re: ISPs can’t find any judges who will block California net neutrality law

#81
post #46

The whole net neutrality saga just exposed the deep regulatory capture between ISPs and the FCC (the Republican Commissioners at least). Pai's argument for repealing net neutrality was that it wasn't a Federal government concern. That was originally what prompted California to institute these rules. But suddenly it wasn't a state issue either. Weird . The US has some of the most expensive Internet access in the world…

>Customers are pulling that data and those customers, by definition, are already paying for the bandwidth Downloading bandwidth is free. The person who is uploading is the person who pays.

That's not how it works. It's more like each side pays for half.

Some telcos, mostly in Europe, are trying to force through sender-pays settlement because it would make them money but that's fairly recent and I hope it doesn't go through.

Re: ISPs can’t find any judges who will block California net neutrality law

#82

Can someone explain a technical issue I see with net neutrality? From a network engineering perspective, it seems sensible to me that CDN servers are located as close as possible to end users. So I assume that implies residing in whatever data centers the ISPs use at their edge. Is there some way to get the networking-efficiency benefits of those colo arrangements while still having net neutrality?

Net neutrality does not regulate the peering/colo end of the transaction. Though Mozilla argued that it should, after Comcast let their Level 3 link clog up to coerce Netflix into paying to peer with them directly.

Even if we did have peering neutrality on the books, this wouldn't outlaw edge CDNs. It would just prohibit Comcast from charging Netflix more money for the same equipment or access to their network than, say, YouTube.

Re: ISPs can’t find any judges who will block California net neutrality law

#83
post #43
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not price the network equally for everyone? It's not clear what this means. I guess in the context it means everyone pays the same unit rate per amount of data transferred? I think there's more subtlety than this. I pay more for a 100MBit connection than a 10MBit connection, and also pay more for the data transferred over those connections? Are they allowed to charge higher speed customers a lower unit rate?

The question comes into play at the edges - when your ISPs upstream connection is filled what happens? Can they selectively drop packets or do they have to drop them randomly? And can you pay to be in a “never drop my packets” group?

The "American Way" for this is pretty simple to see:

1. the destination customer can pay themselves into a tier such as "never drop" 2. the source customer cannot

That is, retain "money is power" for individuals but add a veneer of social respectability by denying Netflix etc. to just buy up the bandwidth.

Re: ISPs can’t find any judges who will block California net neutrality law

#85
post #2

> California's net neutrality law is similar to the federal rules repealed under former FCC Chairman Ajit Pai. California prohibits ISPs from blocking or throttling lawful traffic. It also prohibits requiring fees from websites or online services to deliver or prioritize their traffic to consumers, bans paid data cap exemptions (so-called "zero-rating"), and says that ISPs may not attempt to evade net neutrality prot…

> and says that ISPs may not attempt to evade net neutrality protections by slowing down traffic at network interconnection points

Here's an anecdote. Over 10 years ago, I worked for an ISP company in Russia. That was before they went draconian on the 'Net (beyond SORM-2, I mean) - I left around the time Russian government started to mandate blocking websites. Just to clarify - that was an age of rapid growth and users had a choice of ISPs (I had 7 possible to pick from), so providers had competed really seriously.

Which is why net neutrality wasn't a thing - on the contrary, providers were incentivized to set up local FTP servers. Uh, y'know, for warez, though, of course, officially ISPs just "didn't knew" what users were doing there - but that was before streaming services; even Steam was quite a novelty at the time. Those FTPs had faster access speeds (traffic shaping was turned off for their IPs entirely, so up to 100Mbps when 10Mbps connectivity was the norm) and unaccounted traffic. It was mutually beneficial - providers had saved (a lot) on uplink utilization and customers had exchanged content at much faster speeds. In '00s there were even citywide LANs communities, which were torn down only because of malware onset. Those were wild times.

Doing some funky shit like throttling certain traffic meant your users would be gone (people tolerated for a short while, then voted with their wallets). But we had to do this twice. First time it was disaster management, when the first uTP implementation happened. Users had updated their uTorrents and it was buggy and caused very high packet rate (and this is UDP we're talking about), so our edge routers started to choke on this UDP BitTorrent traffic. We had to identify those packets and push a rule that dropped them entirely. Second time was also about BitTorrent - in an university dorm, where we contracted to set up WiFi coverage - I don't remember the details but we had really struggled ensuring fair bandwidth distribution, as someone torrenting made network barely usable for others (because of radio interference, not bandwidth limitations), but we had to tune it down to make it work somehow.

Another story from those times. We had started to receive tons of complaints that YouTube was performing poorly. We've spent days trying to figure out what the heck was wrong there, and realized the problem was only manifested through one of the upstream providers. They had no clue either, so the temporary solution was to push a a bunch of excessive AS-PATH elements in BGP announce to deprioritize routing YouTube traffic from that direction, then wait until someone upstream figures it all out.

And yet another story is that we ran analytics (anonymized, we only looked at very coarse AS level traffic distribution) to understand where we talked to most and if we should peer with someone else to improve connectivity in those directions.

And, of course, we had blocked ports, such as tcp/25 or tcp/445. Would've been a disaster if we wouldn't have.

The morale of this is that as an ISP sometimes you have to violate neutrality in the interest of your customers, to ensure quality of service. Well, to think of it - QoS is inherently non-neutral since the whole point of it is to classify traffic and differentiate it. And sometimes it's hard to draw a line on what's fair and what's not. I mean, I questioned some things we did and only justified them as "well, I don't see any other options here to make it work". And I don't condone nor condemn those examples - just present them as an anecdote to say that there are always some nuances and sometimes things aren't exactly black and white.

Though when people speak about NN in the US they talk about shitty anti-customer moves like throttling Netflix trying to squeeze some money out of this.

Re: ISPs can’t find any judges who will block California net neutrality law

#86
post #2

> California's net neutrality law is similar to the federal rules repealed under former FCC Chairman Ajit Pai. California prohibits ISPs from blocking or throttling lawful traffic. It also prohibits requiring fees from websites or online services to deliver or prioritize their traffic to consumers, bans paid data cap exemptions (so-called "zero-rating"), and says that ISPs may not attempt to evade net neutrality prot…

I know a fellow who works sales for a fiber backbone provider. He has a few tortured and circuitous arguments why it is totally fine.

He is full of funny ideas which are silly. Often including long debunked ideas on race, gender, class, etc.

Yes, he was born rich. How did you know?

Re: ISPs can’t find any judges who will block California net neutrality law

#87

Can someone explain a technical issue I see with net neutrality? From a network engineering perspective, it seems sensible to me that CDN servers are located as close as possible to end users. So I assume that implies residing in whatever data centers the ISPs use at their edge. Is there some way to get the networking-efficiency benefits of those colo arrangements while still having net neutrality?

I’ve never seen any definition of Net Neutrality that mentions CDNs co-located in ISP data centers as a problem, so the issue you’re mentioning doesn’t exist.

It would be an NN issue if ISPs were to try to charge customers a different price for content located on their CDNs, or prioritize traffic going to sites hosted in their data centers.

Re: ISPs can’t find any judges who will block California net neutrality law

#88
post #46

The whole net neutrality saga just exposed the deep regulatory capture between ISPs and the FCC (the Republican Commissioners at least). Pai's argument for repealing net neutrality was that it wasn't a Federal government concern. That was originally what prompted California to institute these rules. But suddenly it wasn't a state issue either. Weird . The US has some of the most expensive Internet access in the world…

[flagged]

It only matters when it's about laws that they favor. If the laws you mentioned were federal laws, and there were state laws that countered them, there would be nary a suggestion of states' rights from conservatives.

Re: ISPs can’t find any judges who will block California net neutrality law

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been asking this exact question for years. I feel like most people got some well-meaning propaganda on this and see net neutrality as an anti-censorship thing (which, hooray for anti-censorship) without thinking through all the totally reasonable and useful things that would violate the letter of it.

I don’t fully understand how anti-censorship is a virtue when defending Google and Netflix but then becomes a vice when defending regular people’s ability to not be arbitrarily banned on Twitter.

Because the Republicans were hypocrites on this issue. No more and no less. "But Twitter is a private platform" is entirely a way for Democrats to wave that in their face.

Trump called Net Neutrality "Obamacare for the Internet" and gave Ajit Pai the power at the FCC to kill it. The GOP was all for "ISPs are private platforms" and "regulating ISPs violates their free speech" back then, when they thought they were on "their side".

To their credit, they were, kind of. Twitter decided to give Trump special treatment under their World Leaders policy, allowing him to break rules[0] with minimal consequences. They did this because Trump[1] gave Twitter clout and relevance that they wanted. This all changed after Jan 6; when a mob of extreme-right Trump supporters stormed the Capitol. Suddenly, big tech flip-flopped on Trump and decided they weren't going to serve extreme right-wingers anymore.

Republicans had taken tech companies as public utility for granted, while at the same time they were hard at work ensuring there would be no legal basis for actually regulating tech companies as public utilities. Yes, there's a few right-libertarian arguments[2] against this kind of regulation, but that entire wing of the GOP has been a lame duck for half a decade by now[3]. As far as I can tell, Republicans saw that liberals had been screaming their heads off about Comcast censoring the net, and that was apparently good enough justification to oppose Net Neutrality. The Stupid-Partisan wing of American politics wins again.

I'm not saying it's good that Twitter censors politicians that I don't like; of course. I'm saying that those politicians need to apologize and admit they were on the wrong side of the argument[4], because "censorship is OK when Comcast does it but not Twitter" is not a coherent argument. It's just self-dealing.

[0] Most egregiously: Donald Trump was exempted from DMCA 512 takedown notices, so if he used your song in a video and posted it on Twitter, you couldn't take down the tweet for stealing your song.

[1] More generally, any @POTUS account

[2] e.g. "How does Comcast pay for better routers if they can't double-bill Netflix"

[3] Source: I used to be deep into right-libertarianism back in college, during the "Ron Paul R[3vol]ution" days. As far as I can tell everyone involved either went alt-right, or left-libertarian. Or their name is Louis Rossman.

If you're wondering, I still support Net Neutrality and I think large social media platforms should also be regulated under common-carrier rules. However, I don't think even that should get Trump back on Twitter. The World Leaders policy was itself a common-carrier violation.

[4] https://xkcd.com/743/

Re: ISPs can’t find any judges who will block California net neutrality law

#90
post #46

The whole net neutrality saga just exposed the deep regulatory capture between ISPs and the FCC (the Republican Commissioners at least). Pai's argument for repealing net neutrality was that it wasn't a Federal government concern. That was originally what prompted California to institute these rules. But suddenly it wasn't a state issue either. Weird . The US has some of the most expensive Internet access in the world…

>Customers are pulling that data and those customers, by definition, are already paying for the bandwidth Downloading bandwidth is free. The person who is uploading is the person who pays.

I guarantee you I pay my ISP every month primarily for downloading bandwidth, but for both ends at the end of the day. Netflix in turn pays their ISP. Those ISPs then have (potentially indirect) peering arrangements.

On top of this, Netflix offers to install CDN nodes within other ISP's networks to reduce that ISP's traffic across exchanges (connections between ISPs). If an ISP doesn't see the value in those and wants to treat Netflix like any other traffic that makes it's way to AWS, they're welcome to do so; it's just very not in their favor. Them using that as a cudgel to try and extort money out of Netflix is absurd.

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