Penmanship • Hacker News Board

Re: Penmanship

#101

Post by pjlegato » Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

mgas wrote: post #72

Here's my take: The author was born in the 90s, and was in elementary and middle school in the 2000s, when keyboarding was already seen as a primary skill. His take that "nobody writes cursive anymore" is true, given that for him, "everyone" is under the age of 30. Those of us who grew up prior to personal computers and phone touchscreens being ubiquitous can scream all we want "I learned cursive and I still write it…

Cursive may well functionally fill the role of social class shibboleth in certain circumstances and specific social environments, but that is very secondary to its highly practical primary function: you can write _much faster_ in cursive than by any other means.

There were no typewriters or computers through almost all of human history. Writing was it. This skill had, and to a large degree even today still has, enormous practical and economic value.

The utility of this ability to efficiently produce text artifacts is vastly higher when one can do so in a manner that is readily legible to others, which requires that one use an approximation of standardized, well-known glyphs. The closer you can produce them, the more differentially legible your written output is to others. It's not merely a coded signal for your elite status.

Even today when many can take notes on a keyboard, writing notes by hand has a well studied secondary practical effect of improving retention and comprehension, as well as being available any time a pencil and paper are at hand. These still work when dropped, when they get wet, when the power is out, or when you forgot to charge them.

Re: Penmanship

#102

Post by yodon » Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

squirt wrote: post #99

albert_e wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is the "italic" style slanting deliberate and required?

Yes and yes! It's due to the way penmanship was written. Consider the arm position [0] of proper penmanship. The page is at an angle to the left, such that it is similar to the angle of your forearm on the page. Pivoting at the elbow allows you to swing your arm from the left side of the page to the right. The forward slant allows you to always be moving "forwards" as you write across the page. I hope that was clear.…

I agree that the slant is intentional, but it's not clear to me that the slant comes as a result of the preferred arm position (it seems equally likely the arm position was chosen because it results in the desired slant).

As you might be aware, arm position and use in serious calligraphy is a far more thoughtfully and intentionally designed process than I ever would have imagined. A major component of Spencerian technique involves resting the right forearm on the left palm (I think I have that right, I'm not actually one who does Spencerian writing) in order to use the flesh of the forearm as a linear bearing driven by the shoulder muscles and constrained by the left palm as a means of achieving a more repeatable and predictable translation motion than can be achieved with simple proprioception based motor control.

Re: Penmanship

#103

Post by ASalazarMX » Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 5:25 PM UTC

yodon wrote: post #10

Every couple years, I'll adjust my doodling habits to a set of patterns based on a simplification of the Palmer method. This simple doodling practice has given me the best handwriting at just about every place I've worked in the past ten years. Draw two horizontal lines about half an inch apart and in the space between them doodle one of: + continuous clockwise stream of overlapping circles (imagine you flattened a s…

We used to get homework of these in elementary school. I always thought it sucked, and did them poorly, and my penmanship now is awful unless I write very slowly. Fortunately very, very rarely I need to write by hand.

Re: Penmanship

#104

Post by squirt » Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 5:25 PM UTC

NoGravitas wrote: post #17

> In penmanship class, we learned a standard cursive font. I think it’s the standard cursive font, in fact. He's wrong that there's a standard cursive. Different countries and different centuries have used a variety of different cursives. Most Americans who were taught cursive in school learned either Zaner-Bloser or D'Nealian, which both derive from Palmer. Both of them are terrible . They have indistinct letter sha…

> Zaner-Bloser or D'Nealian, which both derive from Palmer.

This is not accurate. Zaner predates Palmer.

> Both of them are terrible. They have indistinct letter shapes that degrade horribly when written quickly.

I would more attribute this to...

  1. Unskilled modern penman
  2. An eye that's unaccustomed to reading old script

... rather than something intrinsic to the style. Business penmanship was, after all, created to be fast & legible. Historical pieces of penmanship are most often legible, particularly when written by skilled penmen.

Source: was professional penman, specifically studying 1860-1920 American penmanship.

Re: Penmanship

#105

Post by jrootabega » Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 5:25 PM UTC

squirt wrote: post #97

yodon wrote: post #10

Every couple years, I'll adjust my doodling habits to a set of patterns based on a simplification of the Palmer method. This simple doodling practice has given me the best handwriting at just about every place I've worked in the past ten years. Draw two horizontal lines about half an inch apart and in the space between them doodle one of: + continuous clockwise stream of overlapping circles (imagine you flattened a s…

Qualifications: former professional penman, focusing specifically on American Penmanship from ~1860-1920. Spencerian script, and the Palmer method both fall into this time period. > If you start doodling these figures when you're bored on zoom, your penmanship will magically improve I find this sentiment common, particularly amongst people who learned penmanship "recently". It is incorrect. A brief interlude--When I…

I'd like to hear more about being a professional penman!

Re: Penmanship

#106

Post by e_quaint » Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 5:26 PM UTC

bombcar wrote: post #42

ubermonkey wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In re: different countries: students who study Russian (or, I assume, other languages that use a similar alphabet) typically learn to write Russian in cursive. The letter forms overlap with English/American cursive, but not perfectly, and of course there are OTHER letters, too, that we lack. (Russian cursive is also notoriously hard to read for non-native speakers owing to a few idiosyncrasies: some letters are entir…

It’s very likely that English cursive is insufficient to really write the English words - since English pretends to only have 26 letters but so many do double or more duty - sometimes distinguished by diphthongs or other mechanisms but often just assumed you’ll know which pronunciation is right. I wonder if the Russian cursive slips in because it has sounds that are closer.

What fascinated me when learning both Russian and English cursive is that Russian cursive makes writing in Russian much much faster, whereas English cursive (the one taught in school) just slows you down and is absolutely counterintuitive.. Also, I am yet to meet a person who is not confused by the cursive English G..

Re: Penmanship

#107

Post by yodon » Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 5:29 PM UTC

squirt wrote: post #97

yodon wrote: post #10

Every couple years, I'll adjust my doodling habits to a set of patterns based on a simplification of the Palmer method. This simple doodling practice has given me the best handwriting at just about every place I've worked in the past ten years. Draw two horizontal lines about half an inch apart and in the space between them doodle one of: + continuous clockwise stream of overlapping circles (imagine you flattened a s…

Qualifications: former professional penman, focusing specifically on American Penmanship from ~1860-1920. Spencerian script, and the Palmer method both fall into this time period. > If you start doodling these figures when you're bored on zoom, your penmanship will magically improve I find this sentiment common, particularly amongst people who learned penmanship "recently". It is incorrect. A brief interlude--When I…

I think this is something of a debate on "is it good to get some exercise?" vs "is walking or swimming or weight lifting a better exercise?"

The minimal set of doodles I mentioned is a simplification of the Palmer method, which can itself be thought of as a simplification of the Spencerian method. If one wants to get into penmanship seriously, there are many wonderful rabbit warrens to descend into.

If one is unable to form legible letters at all, in my experience that tends to be more of a fine motor eye-hand coordination thing than anything else, in which case almost any well-chosen set of doodle drills will help significantly.

[edit] also - welcome to HN! I just noticed the green font for your username. I suspect you'll have lots to contribute to this place.

Re: Penmanship

#108

Post by squirt » Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 5:31 PM UTC

jrootabega wrote: post #105

squirt wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Qualifications: former professional penman, focusing specifically on American Penmanship from ~1860-1920. Spencerian script, and the Palmer method both fall into this time period. > If you start doodling these figures when you're bored on zoom, your penmanship will magically improve I find this sentiment common, particularly amongst people who learned penmanship "recently". It is incorrect. A brief interlude--When I…

I'd like to hear more about being a professional penman!

It's a surprisingly big field. Largely divided into:

  1. More artistic, commissioned works
  2. Wedding calligraphy, envelope addressing
  3. Teaching

I principally taught. Was too much of a perfectionist, and would devote more time than was economically viable to commissioned works. Though my art is on a couple wine labels in Napa.

Calligraphers/penman show up in surprising places. The White House employs 3 calligraphers for writing menus, invitations to formal events, etc.

Re: Penmanship

#109

Post by squirt » Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 5:39 PM UTC

yodon wrote: post #107

squirt wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Qualifications: former professional penman, focusing specifically on American Penmanship from ~1860-1920. Spencerian script, and the Palmer method both fall into this time period. > If you start doodling these figures when you're bored on zoom, your penmanship will magically improve I find this sentiment common, particularly amongst people who learned penmanship "recently". It is incorrect. A brief interlude--When I…

I think this is something of a debate on "is it good to get some exercise?" vs "is walking or swimming or weight lifting a better exercise?" The minimal set of doodles I mentioned is a simplification of the Palmer method, which can itself be thought of as a simplification of the Spencerian method. If one wants to get into penmanship seriously, there are many wonderful rabbit warrens to descend into. If one is unable…

> I think this is something of a debate on "is it good to get some exercise?" vs "is walking or swimming or weight lifting a better exercise?"

This is an astute comparison, and I think you're completely right. One who devotes time and effort into practice (nearly any practice) of handwriting will improve.

However I would liken it more to something such as: "will Olympic weightlifting make me a better soccer player than sprinting, ball control, and team coordination drills will?". It's not a generic A or B, as we're trying to achieve an intended result.

More aptly, "given I want to achieve C, is A or B a better approach".

Re: Penmanship

#110

Post by musicale » Thu, Apr 21, 2022, 6:06 PM UTC

NoGravitas wrote: post #17

> In penmanship class, we learned a standard cursive font. I think it’s the standard cursive font, in fact. He's wrong that there's a standard cursive. Different countries and different centuries have used a variety of different cursives. Most Americans who were taught cursive in school learned either Zaner-Bloser or D'Nealian, which both derive from Palmer. Both of them are terrible . They have indistinct letter sha…

I like cursive italic a lot.

+ beautiful; consistent letter forms between printing and cursive

- better with chisel vs. round tips; joins are still somewhat complicated