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Fedora considers deprecating legacy BIOS

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Re: Fedora considers deprecating legacy BIOS

#131
post #25
post #4

> UEFI is defined by a versioned standard that can be tested and certified against. By contrast, every legacy BIOS is unique. The "standard" for BIOSes was at first the IBM PC ROS's Reference Manual, and later the PS/2 Reference. Naturally, many vendors failed to implement it correctly. But the problem with EFI is the same. Still hoping that someday, EFI netboot support will be something usable. I once considered usi…

- previously, x86 MBR-style partition tables (which were the only thing really supported in Linux) gave you no strong semantic information about what a partition was[1]. GPT may involve GUIDs, but in the grand scheme of things that's a small part of the cost of mounting stuff. - FAT is old, and FAT is well-supported by basically anything, and what features do you want in the partition that contains your bootloader th…

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Re: Fedora considers deprecating legacy BIOS

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also do this because it is likely that Microsoft will stop signing their bootloaders/kernels with their UEFI CA keys if they allow arbitrary user modules to be loaded (because it would be trivial to abuse those kernels to break Windows' full disk encryption). And if Microsoft stops signing your bootloaders it is an automatic death sentence for your distribution, as you can no longer boot the LiveCD without "scar…

>And if Microsoft stops signing your bootloaders it is an automatic death sentence for your distribution, as you can no longer boot the LiveCD without "scary prompts" and/or fiddling with the BIOS setup. Not really? Several popular Linux distributions simply do not support Secure Boot. Arch Linux is one of them.

That's because current generation of hardware does not mandate secure boot on x86. I expect that will change once Windows 11 has had a few years to turn the majority of the computers secure-boot capable due to its hardware demands.

Re: Fedora considers deprecating legacy BIOS

#133
post #26
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenFirmware: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Firmware Many systems get by just fine with a minimal ELF or multiboot loader and a firmware-provided devicetree specification. Dynamic hardware enumeration is performed by every OS anyway, the only hardware that must be initialized is the bootloader/kernel storage. For the x86 platform, this could be implemented via coreboot (libreboot always reads to me as lib-reboot…

Do you propose that Fedora not support EFI and tell its users to replace the firmare or only buy devices with that? That would be a massive step backwards in hardware support. Like I said: They don't really have the option of not supporting EFI. Alternatively they can support EFI and OpenFirmware, but that increases the number of supported paths instead of decreasing them.

No, I don't propose that Fedora not support EFI. I do propose that Red Hat use some of its parent company's clout to push hardware vendors in a more open direction.

Re: Fedora considers deprecating legacy BIOS

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except for some embedded computers with Atom CPUs and some enterprise-oriented laptops, I have not seen any systems without legacy BIOS compatibility. Nevertheless, the option to enable the legacy BIOS booting can be quite hard to find in the BIOS menus, which may deceive many into believing that a system does not support legacy BIOS booting, even when it actually does support it. On work computers belonging to a com…

From the article: > Intel stopped shipping the last vestiges of BIOS support in 2020 (as have other vendors, and Apple and Microsoft), so this is clearly the way things are heading - and therefore aligns with Fedora's "First" objective. You may not have seen many computers yet without legacy BIOS compatibility but this is going to be the norm for new computers very soon.

The last new PC that I have seen, and which still had legacy BIOS booting support, was a Dell laptop purchased in Q2 2021.

However, it was a model launched in the second half of 2020. It is indeed possible that the models introduced since 2021 might omit the legacy BIOS booting support.

Re: Fedora considers deprecating legacy BIOS

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what features do you want in the partition that contains your bootloader that FAT doesn't support? Well, I'd love to be able to drop a bunch of 8GB (notably FAT doesn't support files this big) LiveDVD disk images on a bare file system and see them in the computer's built-in boot-menu immediately. I already enjoy the fact I don't need a traditional boot loader (like GRUB) to handle multi-OS as I can have 2 independe…

Ventoy can do this: small EFI partition with keys you can enroll in SecureBoot and a fat second partition you drop all your ISOs onto.

GRUB can also do this. In fact, I'd be in favour of deprecating GRUB as the default for UEFI on Linux distros as it's a huge codebase (including lots of legacy things) which is overkill for booting a single OS (the Linux kernel itself can be a UEFI application, no bootloader needed) but for this use-case it's perfect as it's essentially its own mini-OS and can handle a wide array of filesystems including LUKS, Linux mdadm RAID, LVM, etc.

Re: Fedora considers deprecating legacy BIOS

#136
post #84

I wish people would stop sharing LWN subscriber links for karma. They're not meant to be shared in social news websites. https://lwn.net/op/FAQ.lwn#slinks 20 of the poster's last 30 submissions have been LWN subscriber links.

They're not meant to be shared in social news websites. From your link: "Where is it appropriate to post a subscriber link? Almost anywhere. Private mail, messages to project mailing lists, and blog entries are all appropriate. As long as people do not use subscriber links as a way to defeat our attempts to gain subscribers, we are happy to see them shared."

Having access to nearly every paid LWN article on a news aggregator certainly feels like "a way to defeat our attempts to gain subscribers". But others said these links are subscriber-specific so I guess LWN is fine with it if they aren't taking the links down.

Re: Fedora considers deprecating legacy BIOS

#137
post #31

My short summary of this: pretty much every x86 client system since 2012 has shipped with working UEFI support (because Microsoft required it for new Windows 8 systems), and from a compatibility perspective Linux works Just Fine with basically all of them. Servers took a little longer (HP, especially, wanted to do things like just add GPT support to their BIOS implementation), but even that's in a good position now.…

You (and they) forget the part where graphics cards play an intimate role in MBR or UEFI boot. And there still innumberable quite functional graphics cards that will never, ever, allow a system to boot under UEFI. GPUs are deeply integrated into the boot up process. This is easy for IBM/Fedora to forget because GPUs probably don't matter much to them. They just take their intel integrated graphics on their workstatio…

What graphics cards make it unable to boot via UEFI?

Re: Fedora considers deprecating legacy BIOS

#138
post #4

> UEFI is defined by a versioned standard that can be tested and certified against. By contrast, every legacy BIOS is unique. The "standard" for BIOSes was at first the IBM PC ROS's Reference Manual, and later the PS/2 Reference. Naturally, many vendors failed to implement it correctly. But the problem with EFI is the same. Still hoping that someday, EFI netboot support will be something usable. I once considered usi…

The legacy BIOS boot system and MBR format has some real issues that could be improved but this just sounds like an ideological battle against things inspired by Microsoft rather than legitimate technical concerns. As far as I know, despite the things you list having Microsoft roots, they are well-documented and have free/libre implementations so Microsoft influences are not really a problem.

The main problem you have is that convincing manufacturers and proprietary OS makers (including Microsoft) to switch to a hypothetical UEFI replacement free of those issues is going to be an impossible task, while UEFI is already here and while not perfect appears to be better than the legacy BIOS boot system.

Re: Fedora considers deprecating legacy BIOS

#139
post #4

> UEFI is defined by a versioned standard that can be tested and certified against. By contrast, every legacy BIOS is unique. The "standard" for BIOSes was at first the IBM PC ROS's Reference Manual, and later the PS/2 Reference. Naturally, many vendors failed to implement it correctly. But the problem with EFI is the same. Still hoping that someday, EFI netboot support will be something usable. I once considered usi…

> - EFI "executables" are actually windows executables, who still start with the 'MZ' header from MS-DOS. The real mode code for displaying "This program cannot be run in DOS mode" is, depending on the toolchain, sometimes still included. Also legacy from Microsoft.

No. They are not Windows executables. They won’t run under Windows at all for multiple reasons. They are PE executables.

PE is the executable format developed for Windows, and yes, it is backwards compatible with MZ executables, so it has the now-confusing MZ header even though that doesn’t make sense under EFI. It also has some other weird details kind of hardcoded in, like some of the data directories, many of which don’t make that much sense under EFI. Worse, it’s a little weird to parse, with many things being deduced by using known structure sizes combined with offsets specified in fields.

However, PE as a format is totally fine. Good, even. In its purest form, it really doesn’t have that much baggage. It flat out has some advantages over ELF whose symbol table non-sense is notoriously complicated. Not so under PE: explicit table of exports, explicit table of imports. The imports go to specific modules. Symbols don’t conflict. It’s got cruft, but it’s very simple to write a parser or loader, and I’ve done so a number of times before. With PE the runtime linking is handled by whatever OS is running, be it EFI or Windows; none of the INTERP stuff is needed.

Frankly, I’d be OK with using PE on Linux too. When I was a kid, I toyed around with making a binfmt for PE. Of course I didn’t finish (most notably, I never figured out how to do linking, since the ELF binfmt didn’t really do that) but it’s quite straightforward to get the actual loader going.

As for the rest of the grievances… As far as I know, FAT and GPT are only required to be supported by EFI, not required to be used. Some EFI implementations support other filesystems for the ESP (like Apple with HFS+,) and I’ve not used one that won’t happily use an ESP on an MBR.

Re: Fedora considers deprecating legacy BIOS

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> notably FAT doesn't support files this big ExFAT can support those. You could also use the UDF file system.

But ExFAT lacks the FAT's virtues of being universally supported and royalty-free, yet still is a very dumb FS with no journal (which means unreliable) and no extended attributes (which means data-metadata separation impossible) so I don't see a reason for it to exist anywhere outside severely resource-limited embedded applications. I would rather use Ext4 everywhere for everything. Is the problem preventing wide ado…

A EFI partition is mostly read-only, so I don't think that's a particularly large problem?

> I would rather use Ext4 everywhere for everything. Is the problem preventing wide adoption of Ext4 GPL?

The BSDs don't support ext{2,3,4} particularly well, and Linux doesn't support FFS/UFS particularly well. I mean, there's support for these things, but it's far from complete or perfect and it's taken a long time.

It's just a fair amount of effort to implement filesystems well, and there's very little tolerance for errors. Ext4 isn't spectacularly complicated, but it's not exactly a simple FS either. I think that has more to do with lack of support than anything else: lots of effort for not all that much practical benefit.

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