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California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3

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Re: California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3

#201

Post by midasuni »

onion2k wrote: post #189
ploxiln wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electrical power is fungible, but the time it is available is not. There is usually near-peak power usage just after sun-down. So while a large amount of "clean" power was generated in the middle of the day and sold to other states, after sun-down a significant portion of the power used in the state was "un-clean". Even if California made it the final 3% to reach 100% renewable energy (by the headline metric), it wil…

Even if California made it the final 3% to reach 100% renewable energy (by the headline metric), it will still depend on a significant amount of non-renewable energy for significant parts of every single day (or else it will have blackouts). It's not like you can ramp a coal-fired or nuclear power station up and down on a whim either though. It takes time and planning to modify the output if you don't have storage ca…

TV pick-up used to be a thing when 17 million people watched Corrie in real time.

Those types of real time viewing figures are limited to live England matches in the euros/World Cup, and very unusual events like the PM’s covid broadcast back in 2020

I’m surprised the US doesn’t have the phenomenon during the super bowl. I guess the lack of kettles and the main attraction of the Super Bowl being the adverts dampens it down though.

Re: California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3

#202

Post by midasuni »

WalterBright wrote: post #186
robbiep wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wholesale price does fluctuate minute by minute. The grid and the average consumer/retail user is not yet sophisticated to take advantage of what you propose. We know this because until recently, this ‘ideal situation’ that you propose was available by a company called Griddy, that went balls up when their consumers got absolutely slammed during the Texas snowstorms, and the idea of having the wholesale price if…

Oh, I know about the Texas example. It wasn't the concept that was bad, it was the implementation. The implementation needs to be coupled with meters where you can set a max price you'll accept. Any system where you sign a contract that says you'll pay any price to turn on a lamp is idiotic, and so are the people who sign such contracts. (The wholesale prices fluctuation does little to affect demand, because the dema…

When it’s dark people turn on the lights. When it’s cold they turn on the heating. Those are the drivers of demand.

Industrial demand (aluminium smelters etc) are more price sensitive, but they tend to be billed by the minute anyway. some “residential” people will be happy to turn off their Bitcoin or weed growing equipment when the price rises but that shouldnt be residential.

The wealthy will have their own storage systems to smooth out the bumps and thus spend less than those who are poorer. You may like that idea, but for most people this would be devestating and less to more deaths.

Re: California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3

#203

Post by VaxWithSex »

tomp wrote: post #183
WalterBright wrote: post #177

If electricity is cheaper to generate when the sun is shining, the retail price of electricity should reflect that. In fact, the retail price should fluctuate minute by minute, so that demand can be shaped to match supply. Trying to match variable supply to a fixed retail electric rate is certain to cause energy gluts and shortages. For example, I'd be happy to charge my electric car during price minima, heat the ele…

> If electricity is cheaper to generate when the sun is shining, the retail price of electricity should reflect that. This would be amazing. It would quickly turn the population off further investment in solar and other unreliable, unpredictable sources of energy and prove that nuclear is the only viable green power.

That comment is so funny, because my home runs on solar/pv plus battery storage and my car too, saving me a ton of money :)

Re: California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3

#204

Post by samtho »

sagarm wrote: post #114
NelsonMinar wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$0.35 would be a bargain. It's more like $0.40 / kWh, it's complicated depending on which rate plan you have and what time of day / year you're using power. https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/rate-plans/how-ra... Meanwhile my neighbors 30 miles away are paying half that rate to SMUD. https://www.smud.org/en/Rate-Information/Compare-rates As a bonus, SMUD doesn't generally kill people and burn down cities.

Presumably the Sacramento utility district doesn't serve high risk fire areas, so their customers don't have to subsidize people that choose to live on the wildlands-urban interface.

SMUD does operate HV lines into the Sierras as part of the Upper American River Project consisting of 11 dams and eight power generating facilities. It’s capable of powering most of Sacramento in a pinch but is typically used only when they need more capacity. Throughout the course of a year, it ends up providing about 20% of Sacramento’s power.

SMUD has very strict preventative maintenance procedures for their HV transmission lines, clearing all underbrush from below the 15KV lines almost yearly. We have not had any major incidents involving electrical fires in my lifetime that I am aware of.

Re: California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3

#205

Post by WalterBright »

midasuni wrote: post #202
WalterBright wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I know about the Texas example. It wasn't the concept that was bad, it was the implementation. The implementation needs to be coupled with meters where you can set a max price you'll accept. Any system where you sign a contract that says you'll pay any price to turn on a lamp is idiotic, and so are the people who sign such contracts. (The wholesale prices fluctuation does little to affect demand, because the dema…

When it’s dark people turn on the lights. When it’s cold they turn on the heating. Those are the drivers of demand. Industrial demand (aluminium smelters etc) are more price sensitive, but they tend to be billed by the minute anyway. some “residential” people will be happy to turn off their Bitcoin or weed growing equipment when the price rises but that shouldnt be residential. The wealthy will have their own storage…

Every house has many energy-hungry devices that can time shift their use.

1. electric car battery recharging

2. hot water heater - heat it to the max of the range when electricity is cheap

3. A/C - cool it to the coldest end of the range when electricity is cheap

and so on. 1,2,3 are just the start of what can be done, cheaply, to shape demand to the price.

> devestating

People adjust their use of gasoline based on the constantly shifting prices. This is how demand is shaped to match supply.

Re: California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3

#206

Post by WalterBright »

Symbiote wrote: post #191
WalterBright wrote: post #177

If electricity is cheaper to generate when the sun is shining, the retail price of electricity should reflect that. In fact, the retail price should fluctuate minute by minute, so that demand can be shaped to match supply. Trying to match variable supply to a fixed retail electric rate is certain to cause energy gluts and shortages. For example, I'd be happy to charge my electric car during price minima, heat the ele…

Here's the price for my residential electricity in Denmark for the next 24 hours: https://i.imgur.com/EER7bMP.png The light part of the graph is transport costs and taxes. I think the price moves within a range -- I'm protected from enormous spikes, but I also won't see the price go negative. This is a standard tariff, there are other options for people owning electric cars. There's also an app to show this informati…

It's a good start, but still an approximation. I bet it makes a significant difference, and that difference will increase over time as people adapt to it, and buy electrical appliances that automatically adapt to it.

Re: California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3

#207

Post by juki »

DocTomoe wrote: post #197
thow-58d4e8b wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's close to the way things work in Europe Pricing for the next day is decided on the spot market, around 2-3 PM. All large consumers and producers place bids on one-hour slots until the market clears. Prices do not fluctuate minute-to-minute, but hour-to-hour. Consumers might opt in to electricity resellers selling spot prices, or get a fixed but usually higher guaranteed price per kWh. All that changes for the e…

As an European with a fixed-Euros-per-kWh-contract (with two prices, one for daytime, one for nighttime, the latter being a bit cheaper), I'm curious - which countries allow you to get a contract in which your electricity costs get updated daily?

Nord Pool covers a large part of Europe: https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/maps/#/nordic

Your actual contract would be with some local electric company that uses Nord Pool (or some other provider).

Re: California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3

#208

Post by WalterBright »

DocTomoe wrote: post #200
WalterBright wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We pay variable prices for gasoline every day, mainly due to unpredictable supply. Society hasn't collapsed.

And we would happily change to another system if it provided long-term price stability.

You'd be happy, but that happiness would fade after not too long. It was tried in the US in the 1970s, and produced long gas lines, shortages, and gluts.

It's what always happens when the government engages in price fixing and supply fixing.

Re: California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3

#209

Post by WalterBright »

Symbiote wrote: post #194
WalterBright wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good approximation. But renewable power generation is affected by the weather, and the weather is not predictable. The price should change minute by minute. Of course, this implies people having internet-connected hot water heaters, car chargers, etc., which are hardly expensive.

The weather across all of Europe (which is relevant for the pricing) is reasonably predictable.

Can it predict a day in advance every time the sun goes behind a cloud?

Re: California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3

#210

Post by WalterBright »

usrn wrote: post #196
WalterBright wrote: post #177

If electricity is cheaper to generate when the sun is shining, the retail price of electricity should reflect that. In fact, the retail price should fluctuate minute by minute, so that demand can be shaped to match supply. Trying to match variable supply to a fixed retail electric rate is certain to cause energy gluts and shortages. For example, I'd be happy to charge my electric car during price minima, heat the ele…

I don't want to live in a place that does that, my power consumption over the course of the day is pretty consistent. We already do that for industrial power consumers how are most capable of changing the time they put load on the grid.

> I don't want to live in a place that does that

Would you prefer rolling blackouts like California has? Would you prefer paying much higher electricity rates for all those peaker plants and grid storage batteries?

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