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U.S. forgives 40k student loans

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#441

Post by Fomite »

uf00lme wrote: post #83
theandrewbailey wrote: post #2

If we're going to be forgiving loans, we shouldn't be giving them out in the first place. Otherwise, we're going to be in the same spot in one generation's time.

I don’t know the Us system at all but it sounds like what they are doing are rewarding public service workers (eg teachers?) or charity workers which likely don’t get paid well by cancelling their debt after a set time period of otherwise good behaviour. Which sounds equitable to me, although I’ll never understand why high school is free but university isnt.

It's a program to get people, primarily with advanced degrees (i.e. Law, Medicine, Dentistry, PhDs, etc.) who would otherwise go to industry.

You have to work for a state, local, federal or tribal government, or a 501c3 (non-profit) for ten years in order to qualify.

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#442

Post by Fomite »

skizm wrote: post #106

Why is the government so afraid of allowing new student loans being issued to go into bankruptcy? Wouldn't this solve most issues going forward? Separate note: instead of loan forgiveness programs, just pay for people's school up front if they go into these public sector jobs. Then if they quit before the end of their contract, they're on the hook for whatever. Same as the military academies system. Free college, 5 y…

There's a couple reasons why not to do this, primarily flexibility. The program is expressly designed to allow people to move between positions, as long as they remain in a state, federal, local, tribal or 501c3 job. Those jobs also aren't guaranteed, nor is the government obligated to find you a posting.

The program wasn't started in bad faith, spent some time there under the Trump administration where it was effectively non-functional, and is now functioning again.

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#443

Post by ch4s3 »

greedo wrote: post #436
ch4s3 wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Payroll tax is basically just secondary income tax. Other OECD nations don’t really do that, it’s an artifact of our wacky welfare system.

It primarily funds Social Security. How is that part of "our wacky welfare system?" If you consider it a secondary income tax, then it really shows how regressive our tax system is since the rich don't pay the same rate.

It’s a tiny portion of federal revenue, which as pointed out and cited is predominantly funded by income tax. It also doesn’t straightforwardly find Social Security. It funds a portion of pay outs to current recipients, something like ~90%, with the rest coming from general funds. That portion is decreasing as demographics shift. It’s sort of a weird cash transfer program that’s presented as some sort of lock box. We could lift the cap to make SS more solvent past the 2040s, but it would still be a small portion of federal revenue compared to income tax which is highly progressive.

I don’t understand how you’re even arguing that income tax isn’t highly progressive here, every tax expert and economist disagrees with you. It’s just basic accounting. Most federal revenue is from income tax and most of it comes from the top quintile of income earners.

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#444

Post by frumper »

nr2x wrote: post #433
lotsofpulp wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternative could also be “government obfuscates prices for education and certain types of labor by offering nebulous benefit, the cost of which can be subject to much manipulation for purposes of presenting it as a low cost benefit”. It would be straight forward to simply pay for higher education expenses directly, with much less bureaucracy and more transparent pricing, allowing for better allocation of society’s r…

This is the Cal system before Reagan basically. Generated more than a few Nobels in addition to the educational mission.

California state university tuition was heavily subsidized by taxpayers 50 years ago. It’s less subsidized today and it’s still over 50% taxpayer funding. That feels like the opposite of transparent pricing.

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#445

Post by CSSer »

CSSer wrote: post #268
BitwiseFool wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Student debt is massive, yes, but why are so few people asking where that money actually went? A cursory search says student loan debt is roughly $1.6 trillion dollars and there are around 4,000 to 6,000 colleges/universities. This is a rough number and the actual amount depends on your criteria, but the gist is that you have a ton of money flowing into a relatively small pool. Yes, I know not every dollar of loans g…

In the case of my alum, I think I can tell you: they spent it on housing and amenities to attract more students (quantity, not quality). I watched it happen while I attended. A university operates under the same principles as any other business in this case. Administrators are not innocent here, but they do have to live within the system and work with the incentives they are provided. Loans are made available to stud…

Turns out "alum" is the gender neutral term for a graduate, not the school. I should've used "alma mater" here. I've never had a chance to learn latin properly and it shows :)

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#446

Post by CSSer »

spiffytech wrote: post #420
BitwiseFool wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Student debt is massive, yes, but why are so few people asking where that money actually went? A cursory search says student loan debt is roughly $1.6 trillion dollars and there are around 4,000 to 6,000 colleges/universities. This is a rough number and the actual amount depends on your criteria, but the gist is that you have a ton of money flowing into a relatively small pool. Yes, I know not every dollar of loans g…

My alma mater needed to bring their student center into compliance on the last ~50 years of building code changes. The project was estimated to cost high-8-figures, for nothing but code compliance. Instead, they spent $120,000,000 renovating it to be shiny and modern and also up to code. I don't understand why it was so expensive, but I'll assume it's not an order of magnitude away from true cost. $1.6 trillion is "o…

This tracks because my alma mater built new housing and a new student center over the course of a few years at the cost of roughly $300 million.

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#447

Post by gruez »

landemva wrote: post #438
caseysoftware wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we already have a solution built into the legal system: Lemon Laws. From the Great Wiki in the Sky: "Lemon laws are laws that provide a remedy for purchasers of cars and other consumer goods in order to compensate for products that repeatedly fail to meet standards of quality and performance." Obviously, these degrees did not meet the standards of quality to make "productive members of society" so the univers…

Or repeal the Clinton-era law that made student loan debt non-dischargeable in bankruptcy. In that way, potential lenders would have incentive to determine ability to repay.

>would have incentive to determine ability to repay.

It's a mixed bag. On one hand it should decrease costs and incentivize students into choosing better career plans (ie. not going to college just because), but it will also mean disadvantaged students won't be able to attend because their projected credit risk is so high.

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#448

Post by gruez »

jatone wrote: post #400
MCllorf wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He still has time to do loan forgiveness "helicopter money" style. But even if all we got was an expansion of targeted relief programs I think it totally counts as fulfilling his talking point. The issue with student debt is that for some people there's no way out, but generally speaking college-educated people are more well-off and forgiving all debt would be a regressive stimulus that targets the wealthier side of…

this isn't targetted relief. this is shit that was already suppose to be done. also regressive stimulus are not even a thing. maybe you're thinking of regressive taxes? which still wouldn't be right.

>also regressive stimulus are not even a thing. maybe you're thinking of regressive taxes?

Regressive taxes favor the rich over the poor. By "regressive stimulus" I'm presuming he's talking about stimulus that favors the rich (eg. well off layers/doctors with high student loan debt but high earning potential) over people with modest student loans but low earning potential.

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#449

Post by Auracle »

kurupt213 wrote: post #253
nebula8804 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am starting to think this is a sign of a big weakness in the American system. These half baked actions are evident in health care, security, and all other categories. I think it has to do with the fact that there are so many parties acting in bad faith that it is hard to get comprehensive legislation that addresses the problem as a whole vs just piecemeal bits and pieces because that is all that can be pushed throu…

Nobody in power is willing to make the necessary unpopular decisions because the voting system discourages this.

Maybe every 25 years or so the legislature and president should all be given final terms all at once, meaning they can’t serve in similar roles again.

This would give an opportunity for hard decisions to be made, but it’d also discourage anyone new from running in the years up to it. It’d be interesting to see what would happen.

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#450

Post by lifeisstillgood »

vnchr wrote: post #422
guhidalg wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m not trying to equate welfare with tyranny, of course. But that's exactly what your first paragraph did, at least in the case of the US. Why do you think welfare "works" for Sweden and would not work for the US? Is Sweden tyrannical?

Expanding government power isn’t inherently tyrannical. But tyrants expand government power for their own benefit. There’s nothing inherently tyrannical about bread or circuses (unless you’re gluten intolerant or fear clowns). Are you familiar with the use of bread and circuses in the Roman Empire? “The evil was not in bread and circuses, per se, but in the willingness of the people to sell their rights as free men f…

It's worth noting that during the middle republic and early imperial years (say the 200-200s) Rome was possibly the most unequal (but still successful) society history has known. The senatorial class owned pretty much everything - and they gave it away on a daily basis in return for power - vote for Brutus and get bread to feed your family. It's hard as a free Roman to get a job working for Caser when old Julius has slaves for everything he can possibly need. The jobs available were basically legionnaire or subsistence farmer (the big farms were worked by ... slaves). If people today think immigrants are coming to take their jobs, just imagine how slavery looks
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