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On anti-crypto toxicity

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Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#621

Post by rvz »

reedjosh wrote: post #547
DebtDeflation wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except (at least in the case of BTC) that transaction will be permanently recorded on an indelible blockchain for everyone to see. Such security and privacy.

Bitcoin Lighting Network and Monero ftw. Bitcoin is not yet perfect. Hopefully someday. Monero however is pretty great privacy wise.

> Bitcoin Lighting Network and Monero ftw.

Two things:

1. Bitcoin Lightning is not Bitcoin and is in fact a centralized by design layer 2 system which the transactions are off-chain [0][1], a direct contradiction to what Bitcoin was designed for. A peer-to-peer on-chain electronic cash system.

2. Monero and the other privacy coins are getting delisted and banned from exchanges due to increasing regulations. [2][3][4]

You can still use Monero, but the on-ramps, exchanges will have banned the privacy coins under these regulations, cutting a way to easily exchange it for fiat.

[0] https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1367-2630/aba062

[1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/2201.07746.pdf

[2] https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/currencies/monero-k...

[3] https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2021...

[4] https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/03/31/eu-parliament-vot...

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#622

Post by logifail »

sneak wrote: post #431
TomSwirly wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying that the use case for cryptocurrencies is crime, which I agree with, and the world's police won't touch you because they can't, which I think is ridiculous. If the EU and the US alone said, "In a month, we'll consider every crypto transaction to be criminal in nature, and we're going to enforce it," the market would collapse as everyone stampeded for the door at the same time.

> If the EU and the US alone said, "In a month, we'll consider every crypto transaction to be criminal in nature, and we're going to enforce it," the market would collapse as everyone stampeded for the door at the same time. True. And yet, cryptocurrencies would still remain useful! A market collapse is not the same as it not having utility. Bitcoin was useful even when it was only pennies, and it will remain so. Thi…

>> If the EU and the US alone said, "In a month, we'll consider every crypto transaction to be criminal in nature, and we're going to enforce it," the market would collapse

> True. And yet, cryptocurrencies would still remain useful! A market collapse is not the same as it not having utility.

(Genuine) Q: How many market participants are interested in "the utility" vs the (potential for) "getting rich"?

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#623

Post by imtringued »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #226
malthaus wrote: post #183

Unfortunately, given: "How can we create a more equitable financial system, where everyone has access to banking services? How can we reduce the power that a small few currently hold over the web? How can we improve data privacy and ensure that people have control over their personal information? How can we create reasonable privacy in the financial system? How can we make information more available to everyone? How…

Bootstrapping a new cryptocurrency where 90% of the coins go to relatively few early adopters is the worst possible way to fix financial inequality. The crypto holders would love if the world switched to using the cryptocurrency they’re invested in because it would make them extraordinarily wealthy relative to the average person buying in late. I don’t understand how anyone can honestly suggest that a gradual changeo…

The aristocracy loved gold because it was money for the elites. Farmers in the US hated it, because it was money for the elites.

Honestly, the arguments are basically the same as the gold bugs and the motivation is the same. People are invested in gold so they want it to succeed even at the expense of other people. Same with cryptocurrency.

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#624

Post by imtringued »

malthaus wrote: post #183

Unfortunately, given: "How can we create a more equitable financial system, where everyone has access to banking services? How can we reduce the power that a small few currently hold over the web? How can we improve data privacy and ensure that people have control over their personal information? How can we create reasonable privacy in the financial system? How can we make information more available to everyone? How…

How? By fostering balanced trade between nations. The Bancor was a good idea and that is why it wasn't adopted.

People should abandon the shared hallucination of believing money can have a physical manifestation. Money represents relationships between people. You can't own relationships without them becoming abusive.

People who maintain abusive relationships against the will of other people should be stopped and punished.

The way most cryptocurrencies are designed as if the people involved truly believe they can own someone else's time indefinitely.

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#625

Post by subroutine »

once_inc wrote: post #141
subroutine wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sadly, the "crypto space" was quickly invaded by hordes of people who never really cared about the technology itself, how it works and what it's actually useful for. If having a solid understanding of the tech underlying crypto is a prereq of any sort, it will never reach mass adoption. Personally idgaf what fiat we choose or tech underlying my debit transactions, so long as the value is reasonably stable, my accou…

Unfortunately, the world tends to dish out black swan events that invalidate your assumptions of what is reasonable. Canadian truckers, Argentinian hyperinflation, Sri Lankan federal deficits, Turkish central banking mismanagement, Russian expansionist delusions... the list goes on and on. Sure, the dollar is reasonably stable. The problem is that the global financial system is deeply flawed in its fundamental proper…

I didnt say I was specifically opposed to Bitcoin. However, until it meets my prereqs, I have little use for it.

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#626

Post by dmitriid »

rglullis wrote: post #553
dmitriid wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's much easier to "sell" web3 to someone that has lived with dysfunctional institutions and has faced one of its many problems, whether it is hyperinflation that leaves poor people with no perspective to save, or systemic corruption that shuts the citizens of any quality service I have lived in such countries (Moldova, in the 90s; Turkey, early 2000s). I wouldn't touch this web3 shit with a 1000-ft pole. All this…

> usually comes from relatively wealthy people in stable countries whose idea about "poor people" comes from watching a Netflix overproduced dramatic documentary. Ok, I was born in Brazil and I experienced 40% per month inflation in the 80s and I saw a government confiscating everyone's saving accounts as part of a "economic plan". I also saw another government putting a tax of 0.38% on every financial transfer (does…

> government putting a tax of 0.38% on every financial transfer (does not seem like much until you think of all the cascading effects)

Unlike crypto/web3 which checks notes puts a tax on everything

> If you are talking about Bitcoin (or crypto currencies in general given how BTC unfortunately still makes its own gravity in the crypto market), I will 100% agree with you.

Bitcoin's price fluctuation in the past year is 200%

Etherum's is ~300%

Monero, 330%

...

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#627

Post by dmitriid »

adolph wrote: post #579
dmitriid wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the point of view of people who live with a volatile currency (aka highly inflationary) it doesn't really matter, does it?

Given Bitcoins overall direction compared to the dollar, it appears deflationary (worth more over time) rather than inflationary (worth less). https://www.statista.com/statistics/326707/bitcoin-price-ind...

Once again, you're completely missing the point. Yes, it's both deflationary and volatile.

What part of "300% value swing over the year" do you not understand?

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#628

Post by dmitriid »

rglullis wrote: post #542
dmitriid wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are basically saying "these GNU people only produce things that are interesting for people into software stuff. Don't give me a C compiler, give me Visicalc." Yes we are. Yes, we re saying that. Because Unix was announced outside Bell Labs in 1973, and VisiCalc's first release was in 1979. It wasn't released on Unix, but that's really beside the point. Two years later it was available for basically any consumer…

Visicalc was not free software. Unix is from the 70's, but Linux 1.0 is from 1994. The point is not just in having an application, the point is in having an application created under the new paradigm.

> Visicalc was not free software... but Linux 1.0 is from 1994.

Goalposts: shifted.

The shift itself is also extremely funny because web3's entire premise is: "you pay for everything"

> The point is not just in having an application, the point is in having an application created under the new paradigm.

So, where are they? Where's web3's VisiCalc (1979), emacs (1976), vi (1976)? Douglas Engelbart's Mother of All Demos was in 1968 [1].

Oh, I know the answer. "Bitcoin paper was 14 years ago, smart contracts first proposed over 30 years ago, appeared on Ethereum 7 years ago, but it's still early for this new paradigm because Visicalc, Unix erm Linux, muble mumble"

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#629

Post by imtringued »

reedjosh wrote: post #364
gwbas1c wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agree, and I must add: Those are all political problems. Technology does not solve political problems. Politics solves political problems. All cryptocurrency does is obfuscate the politics behind its monetary system. As flawed as our monetary system is, the politics behind it are visible and under control of a government. In my country, my government is elected, and I'm an active and informed voter. Thus, I thin…

Politically working in sound money (no printer go brrrr) is governmentally forbidden. Bitcoin subverted the corrupt political process and has brought that choice back.

"Sound money"

I actually don't know what that is supposed to mean. You know, I am tired of these word games. Democratic People's Republic of Korea sounds cool until you realize that this is the official name of North Korea which has absolutely no relationship with democracy.

In theory sound money would imply a money system that acknowledges the existence of the real world and human needs instead of deferring to theoretical models that are known to diverge from reality. Since money is capturing reality perfectly, it introduces no representational errors i.e. money that is in your bank account actually represents the capability to purchase a good or service immediately.

Gold does not do this, unless you want to exchange your gold certificates (gold standard) for gold. When people save gold by putting it under their mattress, they effectively shifted their production schedule ahead, i.e. they produced today and they shifted their consumption schedule back, i.e. they consume later. The problem with this approach is that they are not asking anyone, whether they are willing to switch roles. By that I mean, is there anyone who agrees to consume now and produce later?

If nobody made such an agreement then you will be surprised to hear that there is less produced than you planned to consume in the future, after all, you didn't tell anybody, nor did anyone approach you and explicitly gave you permission to consume in the future. There is increased demand and you get inflation. At some point people start working again and end up overproducing, there will be deflation. This mismatch in the consumption and production schedule is the cause of inflation or deflation over the short term with a gold standard. Sound money does not solve the problem. In fact, it is the root of speculation.

If Bitcoin is sound money then the world doesn't need sound money. It needs money that isn't divorced from reality. It needs money that rewards planning ahead. It needs money that signals both abundance and scarcity of capital. It also needs to account for capital depreciation of idle capital and the loss of time of the unemployed.

Re: On anti-crypto toxicity

#630

Post by cconroy »

rvz wrote: post #621
reedjosh wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin Lighting Network and Monero ftw. Bitcoin is not yet perfect. Hopefully someday. Monero however is pretty great privacy wise.

> Bitcoin Lighting Network and Monero ftw. Two things: 1. Bitcoin Lightning is not Bitcoin and is in fact a centralized by design layer 2 system which the transactions are off-chain [0][1], a direct contradiction to what Bitcoin was designed for. A peer-to-peer on-chain electronic cash system. 2. Monero and the other privacy coins are getting delisted and banned from exchanges due to increasing regulations. [2][3][4]…

satoshi's use of cash probably referred to the concept of final settlement.
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