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IOS 5's "Cleaning" Behavior

marco.org

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Re: IOS 5's "Cleaning" Behavior

#111

Post by Splines »

vacri wrote: post #93
marchdown wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the vast majority of developers of iOS apps the specifics of how their data is stored and backed up do not matter. If they were not forced by Apple to adopt this set of constraints they would make decisions on a whim, it would lead to less freedom for user, because where there is uniformity, there is a power to abstract, there is a freedom to not micromanage. Circumventing design decicions is hard. Learning the s…

So let's all wear the same clothes, eat the same foods, engage in the same pastimes, work the same hours, walk at the same speeds, drive the same car. Then the only abstraction will be in our dreams - the only place we will be free! Our dreams will then be the blessed relief that we will always look forward to as our own little free moment. Point is, such didactic statements are stupid, as is the whole 'less choice i…

So let's all make our own clothes, grow our own foods, invent our own pastimes, work random hours, ignore road signs, and build our own cars.

There's a happy middle, and I think we're approaching it (given the mobile ecosystem, from both sides). I enjoy using iOS, and for most of my apps I don't care where they store it. I do agree that there appears to be a design flaw in iOS surrounding this, but allowing users complete control over their system only allows them (including me) a greater opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot.

Re: IOS 5's "Cleaning" Behavior

#112

Post by hboon »

sjwright wrote: post #110
mw1234 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing "No backup, never cleared" which is what the old "2. Cache" scenario used to be.

I disagree. If it's not worth backing up (locally), it doesn't deserve protected status on the phone. Or to put it another way, if it's important enough to retain when storage space is low, it's important enough to retain for when you have to recover from a backup.

You left out the case of storing data for offline use, which is one of the key use of Instapaper, offline maps, cached notebooks, etc.

If I stored something specifically for offline use, I want it to be available as long as my device is with me, even when I'm offline. (1) Some of it is important as you say, and they should be backed-up, but (2) some are important, but is capable of being downloaded again and shouldn't be backed up and shouldn't'. The latter is the one that is now automatically cleaned up.

Re: IOS 5's "Cleaning" Behavior

#113

Post by hboon »

charlieok wrote: post #106

I must be missing something. What is the problem with backing up pages stored in InstaPaper to iCloud? That's exactly the behavior I would want if I were using InstaPaper.

1. The user can re-download from Instapaper's servers.

2. It goes against the spirit of Apple's policy here, which is not to backup to iCloud what ca be re-downloaded (see 1)

3. The user might have lots of content stored and again due to 1, those don't need to be backed up to iCloud. And really Instapaper actually has a small version of the problem. What is critical is applications that has huge amounts of data like offline maps and wikipedia. Those can be re-downloaded from their servers yet most definitely should not be backed up to iCloud due to time and cost.

Re: IOS 5's "Cleaning" Behavior

#114

Post by vacri »

Splines wrote: post #111
vacri wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let's all wear the same clothes, eat the same foods, engage in the same pastimes, work the same hours, walk at the same speeds, drive the same car. Then the only abstraction will be in our dreams - the only place we will be free! Our dreams will then be the blessed relief that we will always look forward to as our own little free moment. Point is, such didactic statements are stupid, as is the whole 'less choice i…

So let's all make our own clothes, grow our own foods, invent our own pastimes, work random hours, ignore road signs, and build our own cars. There's a happy middle, and I think we're approaching it (given the mobile ecosystem, from both sides). I enjoy using iOS, and for most of my apps I don't care where they store it. I do agree that there appears to be a design flaw in iOS surrounding this, but allowing users com…

But we're already at the happy middle. I don't design my phone hardware, I don't design my operating system, I don't grow my own food...

... but I am free to do all of those, plus free to modify all of those in the way I choose, should I want a better fit. Sure, I may have to be a dev, and have background knowledge in how to engage in some of those, but the capability is there. Granny Jones isn't going to shoot herself in the foot because of some downloaded maps.

Re: IOS 5's "Cleaning" Behavior

#115

Post by nrser »

manage it yourself: put things that need to be persistent in Documents. put the rest in Cache. move 'em as needed. do it automatically by download and access dates and/or provide an interface for people to manage it.

your app absolutely needs tons and tons of data to function? doesn't seem like your day. it's their device, their cloud, their decision. Apple doesn't give a shit about your day; they're going cloud. they may be wrong, but i'd guess they're going to have to find that out for themselves.

i'd assume they acknowledge this may kill some apps. i don't think they ever promised anyone a business; on the contrary, they seem to remind developers that they are there at their good grace all the time. as someone that built Facebook apps since '07, trust me, i know what this is like. start coding and start calling. best of luck.

Re: IOS 5's "Cleaning" Behavior

#116

Post by jeromeparadis »

lukeredpath wrote: post #44

Lots of people are focussing on Marco's particular use case in the comments, and I think it's a valid one, but this extends beyond simple documents. There is a category of data that is aimed at offline use. Streaming apps like Spotify, that let you download playlists for offline use. GPS apps that download hundreds of MB of map data. You get the idea. On one hand, this data is a form of cache. The data is always avai…

I entirely agree. Apple forgot an important use case? I hate it when software is built to think in place of the user. There are two culprits here:

* the lack of persistent, non backable offline storage * the addition of a auto-cleaning procedure

The auto-cleanup without a storage alternative is a blunder. iOS 5 decides for the user what should be deleted to free up space. An alternative would be to prompt what application data you would like to remove instead of a blind decision. Otherwise, that's the kind of programming that will one day lead robots to cleanup the human race! ;)

Of course, having permanent local storage that's not backed up would be a more user-friendly solution. However, it would probably lead people to run out of space when developers begin abusing it like some did with temp or cache storage.

It seems like a trend at Apple these days. With Lion, the OS now decides when an application should quit when unused.

Re: IOS 5's "Cleaning" Behavior

#117

Post by rubergly »

I'm definitely at risk of running into this predicament as a user. I'm more worried about the hundreds of megabytes of podcasts I download when WiFi is available for use throughout the day when WiFi isn't available.

To avoid this issue and enjoy the benefits of iOS 5, I'm going to have to clear out a bunch of apps, music, and photos and ensure that I always have a sufficient amount of "buffer" space so the cleaning is never triggered. I cannot be alone in this, and the fact that Apple is making this kind of thinking necessary for end users is kind of ridiculous. I really can't see this behavior lasting for very long, and I'm sure Apple will address it soon; this is the antithesis to the traditional iPhone experience. The only scenario where I could see this being purposeful is if Apple is really trying to hurt offline apps to increase data usage and appease carriers (maybe for pissing them off with iMessage?).

Re: IOS 5's "Cleaning" Behavior

#118

Post by Terry_B »

rubergly wrote: post #117

I'm definitely at risk of running into this predicament as a user. I'm more worried about the hundreds of megabytes of podcasts I download when WiFi is available for use throughout the day when WiFi isn't available. To avoid this issue and enjoy the benefits of iOS 5, I'm going to have to clear out a bunch of apps, music, and photos and ensure that I always have a sufficient amount of "buffer" space so the cleaning i…

Yeah, glad I read this before upgrading. My large collection of podcasts stored in Instacast will probably be lost straight away.

Re: IOS 5's "Cleaning" Behavior

#119

Post by phillmv »

rubergly wrote: post #117

I'm definitely at risk of running into this predicament as a user. I'm more worried about the hundreds of megabytes of podcasts I download when WiFi is available for use throughout the day when WiFi isn't available. To avoid this issue and enjoy the benefits of iOS 5, I'm going to have to clear out a bunch of apps, music, and photos and ensure that I always have a sufficient amount of "buffer" space so the cleaning i…

I would wait until more reports come in.

Alternatively, just turn off iCloud back ups.

Re: IOS 5's "Cleaning" Behavior

#120

Post by rubergly »

phillmv wrote: post #119
rubergly wrote: post #117

I'm definitely at risk of running into this predicament as a user. I'm more worried about the hundreds of megabytes of podcasts I download when WiFi is available for use throughout the day when WiFi isn't available. To avoid this issue and enjoy the benefits of iOS 5, I'm going to have to clear out a bunch of apps, music, and photos and ensure that I always have a sufficient amount of "buffer" space so the cleaning i…

I would wait until more reports come in. Alternatively, just turn off iCloud back ups.

Will turning off iCloud back ups turn off the auto-cleaning behavior?
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