U.S. forgives 40k student loans • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#231

Post by BeFlatXIII » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #178

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #26

I know every European seems to ask this of every American but what is the resistance to a welfare state? if you look at a government as investing in its citizens like a VC fund, then providing education and medical care is sensible, and some will turn out fine and others will be Bezos and then you can get your investment back via tax. I am honestly trying to avoid the flame war here - but I do it know how else to fra…

> what is the resistance to a welfare state? I don't believe it's sustainable. I don't believe it's sustainable here, and I don't believe it's sustainable there either (in fact, as far as I can tell, we've starting to see the cracks in the European welfare state for a while now). We have some welfare state-like programs here - social security, for example, is supposed to provide guaranteed retirement income to the el…

That's also because much of the funding was based on inherently unsustainable models of indefinitely continued population growth.

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#232

Post by aksss » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

MarcelOlsz wrote: post #197

blippage wrote: post #166

I'm a UK guy in my 50's. I went to uni (the US term for college) in '83. At the time I was in the minority of the population. I was given a grant of £3000pa and was able to make ends meet. I might have lived in, shall we say, the most salubrious of environments, but I emerged without debt. Same thing when I did my masters and PhD a few years after that. I basically caught the tail end of uni, when it was for the mino…

I find myself in a very funny situation where I have a very high paying and great job, that I got without any education. Now that I want to emigrate to Japan, I need a degree, so I am going to study in Finland as real estate is cheap and I can get a degree for free there before moving. I literally just need that piece of paper.

I don’t think Saul Goodman went to Finland for his degree. But seriously, it’s dumb. People with years of demonstrated expertise and progressive responsibility denied opportunity to apply for jobs because they simply don’t meet the MQ of the piece of paper. If you go back for it in the US you’ll be confronted with extraordinary cost, silly pledges for DEI, and all the rest.

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#233

Post by beart » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

henriquez wrote: post #9

Can Biden forgive my mortgage while he's at it? Why should I be in debt for 30 years, it's very inconvenient. Not everyone has the money to get a fancy university education, even with loans and other financial assistance, so we should be cancelling debt across the board. We should nationalize the banks and print money until all the debt is gone. Or it's racist.

This is the result of the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program started in 2007.

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#234

Post by rhexs » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 5:20 PM UTC

bee_rider wrote: post #93

dehrmann wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guarantee is the only reason the loans are made. Otherwise, you're lending a lot of money to someone with no income and no assets, and no one will want to make that loan.

And then the colleges will have to reduce prices or go out of business.

University employees are, unfortunately or not, consistent one party voting blocs. Cuts to them are highly unlikely.

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#235

Post by kevinsundar » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 5:21 PM UTC

mrep wrote: post #131

bombcar wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No matter how many loans or funding you get, it'll always be impossible for everyone to go to the top 50 schools, unless you simply outlaw all schools outside of the top 50.

That is not the point. The point is that kids whose parents cannot pay/cosign a loan can currently get into the top 50 schools but without the government backing the loans, none of them would likely be able to get in at all leaving the top schools only for rich kids.

Not really, if a private lender believes your degree will pay off then you'd be able to easily get a loan for top 50 schools.

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#236

Post by brnaftr361 » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

InitialBP wrote: post #94

throwaway894345 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also reimburse the people who sacrificed to pay theirs off or avoid them in the first place. I’d donate my reimbursement if they did, but of course they won’t.

Demanding "even-stevens" all the time doesn't help the situation at all. The people that were able to pay off their loan debt were people who chose a degree that would be able to make significant money, were talented enough to land a great job in a field without a lot, or had the circumstances that let them finish a degree where others were unable to. Do some people make bad decisions about degree choice? - Yes Do so…

A pretty substantial portion of this "civilization" thing is ensuring social stability. I won't say that this is going to be the hair that broke the camel's back. And I would agree with you entirely on the idea that kids shouldn't be assuming $40k of debt liability as children. But there's a lot of potential destabilizing effects downstream from this in many domains. What won't destabilize society is indicating it was volitional to accept the loan terms and to pursue a degree of nebulous worth.

I wouldn't agree that having a "worthless" degree is some sisyphian burden, my SO went into college and has two trash degrees, but also had all of the prerequisite credits to trivially segue into a meaningful career and a masters. Her loans are paid.

I, on the other hand, am in the middle of my post-secondary after toiling 5 prime years away to avoid debt. The proposition that I could've foregone that sacrifice and been toting around a degree and work experience without full time work throughout school, free of charge - is infuriating.

And this is discounting a thousandfold other paths. What about the blue collar parents that clawed their way up to the middle class, ultimately paying their kid's way through school at a relatively great expense? Or the single father who took out a second mortgage to put his daughter through school? Or an infinity of other possibilities that can't be written into a survey?

The system needs fixed first.

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#237

Post by brewdad » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 5:22 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #152

InitialBP wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demanding "even-stevens" all the time doesn't help the situation at all. The people that were able to pay off their loan debt were people who chose a degree that would be able to make significant money, were talented enough to land a great job in a field without a lot, or had the circumstances that let them finish a degree where others were unable to. Do some people make bad decisions about degree choice? - Yes Do so…

> people who either have made bad decisions, had less fortunate circumstances than others, or a combination of both deserve to live under a mountain of debt for the rest of their life? - No Why does this logic only apply to people who made bad decisions and had less fortunate circumstances or a combination of both only apply to people who did so in the context of taking out student loans? If making bad decisions and…

Because student loans are one of the few types of debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. There is an avenue, through our current legal system, to get out from under credit card debt or a mortgage one cannot afford. That avenue is unavailable to student loan borrowers.

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#238

Post by throwaway894345 » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 5:23 PM UTC

krageon wrote: post #192

leach wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s all fine and dandy until you realize the people who where smart and careful have to foot the bill for those who weren’t. I was smart and sacrificed a little by going to community college so I wouldn’t have debt. I was also smart enough to get a degree in stem where jobs are actually available and in demand. Why should I have to foot the bill for someone who just partied and got a useless degree? I did everythi…

> until you realize the people who where smart and careful have to foot the bill for those who weren’t. > Why should I have to foot the bill for someone who just partied and got a useless degree? Because you're a human being and recognise that while here you made no mistakes and had no bad luck, perhaps someone could have done that or had that. It's called decency, and you have it not because it benefits you. You hav…

Forgiving student loans doesn't benefit everyone, it benefits the people in proportion to their student loan debt, which is to say it disproportionately benefits the upper classes including a lot of people (like me) who could pay off their debt but instead they invest it in the stock market where the returns outpace the interest.

Student loan forgiveness is both unfair and regressive.

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#239

Post by mc32 » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 5:23 PM UTC

SamuelAdams wrote: post #213

loeg wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'd actually have to underwrite on the basis of the value of a degree -- yeah, no one is going to lend money to the same people who wouldn't be able to repay their loans after graduation. That's good!

This is a slippery slope though. This effectively turns universities into career-training centers. Eventually enrollment in less-profitable subjects, like dance and art, will decrease, forcing colleges to drop it from their programming. Then suddenly we have a society that does not appreciate art or dance or whatever other subjects were dropped. This is the slippery slope - creditors get to decide what others know an…

This is not a problem. Tooo many kids graduate with degrees in which they cannot find decently paying jobs, so they end up in a different field altogether. Why have that initial non-starter in the first place and place them into a career that has better potential in the first place?

Once there are too few people in the arts, demand will incentivize more people to get into that field.

Moreover, don't we currently have a problem where we don't have enough students going into STEM?

Re: U.S. forgives 40k student loans

#240

Post by gedy » Wed, Apr 20, 2022, 5:23 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #162

honksillet wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

End federal involvement in student loan and allow student loan debt to be discharged in bankruptcy. Problem solved.

The schools should also have some skin in the game. If a former student defaults on their loan then the school should have to eat part of the cost, and schools (or particular majors) with high default rates shouldn't be eligible for loans at all. This would fix the problem of irresponsible schools encouraging students to take on huge loans that leave them stuck in debt for decades.

Agreed but, if someone tried this you know the schools and media would blast this as "Party X Robbing from Education, hurting students, the next generation", etc. It's tiresome.