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Ask HN: What’s a good laptop for software development at around $2k?

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Re: Ask HN: What’s a good laptop for software development at around $2k?

#311

Post by horsawlarway »

Kudos wrote: post #264
horsawlarway wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup - the tool that will randomly prevent you from opening any 3rd party app if Apple's signature checking service goes down. The tool that defaults to a case insensitive but confusingly case preserving fs. The tool that has been issued in variations that literally can't be used while closed, or if you plug the charging cable into the wrong "all the same" usb-c port. The tool that licenses away virtualization, making…

I'm a Linux user who previously used Macs for years. This list barely touches the actual reality of developing on a Mac for most people. It is not nearly as strong an argument as the arrogant tone suggests.

Hey - Fellow linux user here, I get issued a macbook by work because I touch mobile related code. I can tell you - I'll take win10 over macOS any fucking day.

This list is literally just the most obnoxious fraction of items that have impacted me over the last 5 years of use. I can absolutely keep going.

You want me to discuss the rapid phase out of kernel extensions that allowed VMs to operate well?

Or the minor annoyance that is allowing execution for every fucking brew installed tool, since macOS blocks it by default.

Or should I look at the random 2 hour update times, where the computer is completely unusable?

Or the utterly insane memory usage when running even a small scattering of containers? 4 fairly simple containers will eat 10gbs of ram running a mid sized RoR app, elastic, and a db.

Or how about the xcode install times required to use simple tooling, like git, because "muh system integrity protection!!!" - but don't worry, at least you can get away with "just the command line" version of the tooling, which only eats a few gbs, instead of the fucking 40gb that xcode proper wants.

Re: Ask HN: What’s a good laptop for software development at around $2k?

#312

Post by jlokier »

jbverschoor wrote: post #178
jlokier wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you find lacking in the m1 to make it your dev machine? For me, the 16GB RAM limit on the MacBook Air is the principal reason not to get one, otherwise I would have already. As soon as you go to 32GB or more with M1, it's a big price jump to the Pro range, not sub $2000 any more. I have been looking at the M1 MBPs, but the price makes it need justification, and the 2.5 months lead time even at Apple stores…

67GB won't help your 32GB machine either. The problem is that many websites are full of memory leaks. I had similar issues about 5-7 years ago. I then installed "the great suspender" to suspend tabs that weren't really used. That became spyware or something.. But chrome is pretty good at handling all the tabs. I'm on M1 since it came out and couldn't be happier

It's unlikely to be website memory leaks. If it was, on "memory flush" it wouldn't drop to about the same amount every time that fits comfortably in RAM, with no visible effect except the pause. This event does not unload tabs.

With the numbers I'm seeing, think it's too risky to commit to 16GB non-upgradeable RAM for a laptop that must last many years to justify the cost. The ask HN author wants their sub-$2000 laptop to last for a long time, and I'd worry that even if browsing is smooth in 2022 brand new, what about 2025 and 2028, with more dev and comms apps running as well?

Usually it climbs to 20-30GB or so then triggers the flushing, with many annoying freezes on the way, but yes I've wondered if there's really an upper limit. Given any amount of RAM, will it use all of it and then try to swap even more? Could more RAM even be worse due to some accounting-ratio bug? (67GB is rare, only seen with Telegram which does have a severe leak.)

Like you I'm auto-suspending inactive tabs, and their size certainly isn't a problem after restarting.

Yet I see large RAM fluctuation even on text-only HN tabs. Just now, a new HN tab used 2.5GB more RAM in a few seconds before settling down to 1.2GB. Later the flush event happened and dropped 9GB. The new tab is still open. It wouldn't be a problem if it was just vm stats, but it does cause too many annoying freezes.

So what I think I'm seeing is that bloat has accrued over time, and optimising memory, or perhaps doing it right on MacOS, is not a priority for FF devs (or Safari in my experience with many tabs or windows), and won't be any time soon. If someone has usage similar to me, they should at least look whether RAM usage is borderline now before assuming 16GB (non-upgradable) will be enough over the years they want to keep using the laptop.

Re: Ask HN: What’s a good laptop for software development at around $2k?

#313

Post by octagons »

jwalton wrote: post #223

Lenovo has some pretty good sales on thinkpad X1s (at least they do in Canada - didn't check the US site). But, if you're in Canada, I just bought this: https://www.newegg.ca/p/N82E16834233446?Description=gigabyte... It's got a gorgeous 4K OLED screen, a quite decent CPU and GPU, and it's currently $350 off + a $300 mail in rebate (there was an additional $350 off over the easter weekend, too). The track pad is not m…

Absolutely love the X1 series. I use it as a daily driver running Linux and can vouch for some of the points made in this thread about them.

Re: Ask HN: What’s a good laptop for software development at around $2k?

#314

Post by loeg »

carlsborg wrote: post #94
fy20 wrote: post #51

A few years ago I would have said ThinkPads but I think there are better options available now. At the end of last year I wanted to replace my T470, and wanted to upgrade to something with a more powerful (not U-series) CPU. The ThinkPad option that fitted my requirements was on back order for months, so I looked around... The ASUS ROG line of gaming laptops had exactly what I wanted, although they look a bit garish,…

Second this. I run an Arch derived distro on my ASUS AMD Zen3 5900 with 8 cores/16 hw threads and the cpu benchmarks are close to the M1 macs for about half the price. The Realtek WiFi device is a problem with hp laptops too. Works but needs a cold reboot after the hibernate wakes up. Are you saying the intel WiFi chip is pin compatible with the Realtek? That’s an amazing find.

8C/16T is probably Ryzen 5800 unless mobile uses a really confusing numbering scheme relative to desktop.

Re: Ask HN: What’s a good laptop for software development at around $2k?

#315

Post by horsawlarway »

mdp2021 wrote: post #296
horsawlarway wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup - the tool that will randomly prevent you from opening any 3rd party app if Apple's signature checking service goes down. The tool that defaults to a case insensitive but confusingly case preserving fs. The tool that has been issued in variations that literally can't be used while closed, or if you plug the charging cable into the wrong "all the same" usb-c port. The tool that licenses away virtualization, making…

> the tool that will randomly prevent you from opening any 3rd party app if Apple's signature checking service goes down You mean the Mac needs an internet connection to "work" - there is no "airgapped Mac"? And that they have an execution blocker you cannot disable? How could you code - make your software run on it?

Apple does signature checking for malware - a year or two ago this service went down. The result was that absolutely no 3rd party apps could be opened on macbooks by default. They would spin for a second, then close. The issue is that the machine was online, but could not get a proper response from the signature checking service.

There are work-arounds, and by default this check is disabled while the machine is offline, but it's not exactly confidence building.

My general take on Apple is that the hardware is decent, the software is absolute dog-shit, and the marketing is TOP NOTCH.

Re: Ask HN: What’s a good laptop for software development at around $2k?

#316

Post by colordrops »

avel wrote: post #228
jwalton wrote: post #223

Lenovo has some pretty good sales on thinkpad X1s (at least they do in Canada - didn't check the US site). But, if you're in Canada, I just bought this: https://www.newegg.ca/p/N82E16834233446?Description=gigabyte... It's got a gorgeous 4K OLED screen, a quite decent CPU and GPU, and it's currently $350 off + a $300 mail in rebate (there was an additional $350 off over the easter weekend, too). The track pad is not m…

I am happier with the 1080p screen on the X1. Better performance, less headaches with non-high-dpi-friendly apps, better symmetry when connecting to a non-4k external monitor.

I'd recommend a 1440p screen, so that the dot pitch would be roughly the same as your external monitor, assuming it's 4k.

Re: Ask HN: What’s a good laptop for software development at around $2k?

#317

Post by acidburnNSA »

inetknght wrote: post #243

I recommend System76 laptops. The Serval WS has full desktop class hardware in a laptop chassis (so battery life is a distant second -- my Serval WS lasts for about 40-90 minutes on battery depending on workload). Their other product offerings are pretty good too. And, best of all, they provide first-class Linux support and provide their own Ubuntu-derived distribution, Pop!_OS.

I love my system76 lemur pro. It has amazing battery life. It's quite small and isn't going to be the most powerful thing in the world. I remote into my ryzen 5950x desktop when I need real power

Re: Ask HN: What’s a good laptop for software development at around $2k?

#318

Post by kopos »

GordonS wrote: post #49
jraph wrote: post #27

I'm happy with both my second hand HP Elitebook 840 G6 and the ThinkPad carbon X1 Gen 9 I have for work. I think I like the HP one slightly better: function keys can be set to trigger either F1-F12 or to the actions drawn on them without the Fn key (and the Fn key swaps this). If set to the actions by default, F1-F12 are still automatically used when pressing a modifier key, and no action is on F2, which means I almo…

Do you have any thermal and/or noise problems with the HP? I've had several HPs over the years, including ZBooks, and every single one got very hot and blasts the fans all the feckin time :/ They were all company machines, but it's put me off ever buying one myself.

Interestingly the heat problem for my zbook got solved by reapplying thermal paste just today.

Re: Ask HN: What’s a good laptop for software development at around $2k?

#319

Post by alkonaut »

I have the same question but I'll tweak the parameters somewhat: I want a movable developer workstation. I'll never (or almost never) be using these components of the laptop: battery, screen, touchpad, keyboard. I also don't care much about size weight since I'll be 99% sitting still. On the contrary I'd like it to be large and heavy, if it would help with noise and thermals.

Are there good "movable" laptops that run cool and quiet yet have high perf, and achieve this by actually making the laptop larger?

I want something with good build quality (not a plasticky gaming rig). I want something using recent CPUs (intel 12th gen, or recent Ryzen). High power (35W and up) that can run for hours without throttling. I have tried various Dell models (precisions) but the thermals are abysmal because it's only half the thickness it needs to have in order to manage that kind of power.

Re: Ask HN: What’s a good laptop for software development at around $2k?

#320

Post by brimble »

selfmodruntime wrote: post #258
c0mptonFP wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, operating system is one of the most fundamental things to consider when getting a dev machine. MacOS is literally useless for me, because I depend on the Linux kernel.

You can still install Linux on a mac (which is what I did) and still get a powerful and beautiful machine, if you so desire.

The OS and first-party software are at least 50% of the reason I buy Mac hardware, personally. Safari (+20% battery life), Notes (missing a couple features I'd like, but has also never crashed or glitched on me in a decade of use, so...), Pages, Numbers, Keynote, Digital Color Meter, Preview (I love Preview), the excellent and remarkably low-latency Terminal, Mail, et c.

Take those away and I'd just go back to buying used Windows laptops on Ebay, putting Linux on them, and being sad.

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