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Debian and firmware

blog.einval.com

171–180 of 180 posts

Re: Debian and firmware

#171
post #126
post #62

It is annoying for sure, that for something like AMD GPU you have to go out of the way to get a "non official" Debian installer that includes amdgpu firmware, otherwise installer won't be able to work. For the most part this annoyance affects the installation step. After your system is in some semi-working state where you at least can install packages or have access to network, you can add any firmware you want alrea…

Pretty sure this is what I did on my second attempt and still had the same issues. Could be wrong though. HP Envy 14-eb0 laptop.

A good incentive to learn how to just create customized installer with some additional packages included. Should be doable using Debian tools.

Re: Debian and firmware

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe there should be an official non-free repository (akin to Ubuntu's) which users can enable offline, meaning it needs to be stored on the official CD. Enabling it should display a big scary warning about handing over partial control of your machine to greedy faceless megacorps who will throw you under the bus in a heartbeat if that makes them money. Maybe add an illustration of a robot terminator, to really d…

> I believe there should be an official non-free repository (akin to Ubuntu's) which users can enable offline, meaning it needs to be stored on the official CD. There's already a "non-free" section under official "dists" ([0] for stable). It's just not added to the ISOs. Netinstall directly asks that whether you want non-free enabled during installation too. The only thing is whether building CDs with it or not. Actu…

There are ISOs with firmware available on them for many years now:

https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/image...

Re: Debian and firmware

#173
post #14

As a long time Debian user I'm reluctant to criticize developer ergonomics as I'm not an _active_ contributor. That being said, _as a user_, I've not had any issue locating and using non-free firmware when required, and I would be disappointed to see the project change course by including non-free components in an offical manner. Removing the slight inconvenience (literally clicking a link _on the installation page_…

The non-free version is not official. The last time I used it, it came pre-installed with a bunch of Indonesian language bloat software that it not part of the official Debian install. This is not an acceptable middle ground.

That sounds like an issue that should not happen, please report a bug about it. The non-free version should be identical to the free version except for the installed firmware.

Re: Debian and firmware

#174
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the question becomes, are people using Debian in large part because of those principles, or in spite of the inconveniences that come with them because of other benefits (e.g. it's a fairly well-maintained, stable Linux distribution, that very aggressively believes if something worked on 11.0 it better still work on 11.9)? If we look at popcon[1], it currently says 11.84% of users who opted into popcon regular…

Speaking as someone who is part of this "significant percentage of Debian users", I'd like to point out that opting in is the key part in the phrase "happily opting into". I've made a conscious choice to install the non free packages. I'm quite happy I had that choice, but I'm even happier that they weren't forced on me. I certainly hope nobody will point to me and say "look here, non-free should obviously be the def…

I don't think anyone is proposing removing the ability to not install with nonfree packages, merely whether the default should remain as it is.

Personally, while I would prefer to be able to change and replace the software running on the tiny computers that make up a modern system, focusing on the distinction between "the vendor shipped it on a flash chip so we don't have to think about it" and "we need to load it at runtime" seemed a bit like spending too much effort on too little reward, to me - if we convince the manufacturer to up the cost by a few cents to hide the firmware blob from us, is that really a victory for Free Software, simply because we don't have to think about it? (Particularly if it sometimes results in never having ready access to a mechanism to replace the firmware blob, should someone sufficiently motivated either convince them to Free it or develop a replacement?)

It's great whenever someone develops replacements bits or, even more rarely, convinces a company to release their firmware bits permissively, but without a list of examples of Debian's stance changing the policies of other organizations, I think it's not that effective a tool for changing behavior in this case, and instead primarily inconveniences people who want to use Debian.

Whether they end up changing the default behavior or not, people in this thread replying "wait, there are firmware-bundled images?" makes me think Debian should either stop making them or stop making them so unintuitive to discover.

Re: Debian and firmware

#175
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am just one lowly engineer, but I do what I can. The other 5000 and 6000 series cards work to varying degrees. Unfortunately, since AMD doesn't officially support them, I can't easily get hardware to test them myself. My understanding is that the RX 6700 XT (gfx1031) mostly works, with some caveats. Gentoo did some performance tuning for the BLAS libraries with that GPU. The AMD GPU libraries aren't built for that…

Don't get me wrong, your efforts are definitely appreciated. It would just be nice if AMD officially put more of a priority on consumer Linux users. That's the reason I push back on the assertion that AMD Linux GPU (compute) support is there: it really isn't as what we've got are retrofitted enterprise drivers that, if you can get them to install, may or may not work for a given GPU and have some caveats if they do w…

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. Thanks for the support, and for the information about compatibility. That sort of info is not always easy to discover (let alone contextualize), so I definitely appreciate the feedback.

Re: Debian and firmware

#176
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe there should be an official non-free repository (akin to Ubuntu's) which users can enable offline, meaning it needs to be stored on the official CD. There's already a "non-free" section under official "dists" ([0] for stable). It's just not added to the ISOs. Netinstall directly asks that whether you want non-free enabled during installation too. The only thing is whether building CDs with it or not. Actu…

There are ISOs with firmware available on them for many years now: https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/image...

I know they're present, but they're "Unofficial ISOs", and most people don't get these (incl. me, when I need them).

The blog post is putting the idea of adding the firmware blobs into the official ISO files, and as a Debian user, I'm not comfortable with that.

So, I'm offering another trade-off: "Make inclusion of firmware blobs to installation media on the fly easier, keep firmware off the official ISOs". It's a bit of a DIY solution, but it doesn't need flexing policies, DFSG and the values Debian is standing for.

It's a thin but important line to cross for me.

Re: Debian and firmware

#177
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are ISOs with firmware available on them for many years now: https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/image...

I know they're present, but they're "Unofficial ISOs", and most people don't get these (incl. me, when I need them). The blog post is putting the idea of adding the firmware blobs into the official ISO files, and as a Debian user, I'm not comfortable with that. So, I'm offering another trade-off: "Make inclusion of firmware blobs to installation media on the fly easier, keep firmware off the official ISOs". It's a bi…

IIRC there are ways to use the firmware blobs with the official free ISOs, but I have never bothered with that, just having them present in the ISO and not having to fiddle around with putting them where they are expected is easier.

Re: Debian and firmware

#178
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know they're present, but they're "Unofficial ISOs", and most people don't get these (incl. me, when I need them). The blog post is putting the idea of adding the firmware blobs into the official ISO files, and as a Debian user, I'm not comfortable with that. So, I'm offering another trade-off: "Make inclusion of firmware blobs to installation media on the fly easier, keep firmware off the official ISOs". It's a bi…

IIRC there are ways to use the firmware blobs with the official free ISOs, but I have never bothered with that, just having them present in the ISO and not having to fiddle around with putting them where they are expected is easier.

You can just add the firmware.zip file (or extract it, I don't remember clearly) to a USB drive, and the installer will just mount and use it during installation. So, if there's a tool to merge both easier, or better documentation for the current situation, the problem will solve itself, in my opinion.

Re: Debian and firmware

#179
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a solvable issue it deeply disturbs me you need to dance this dance. Whilst you might not be complaining about it, this is exactly the kind of stuff that deters people from using more FOSS. Not only are selecting non-default options every time you install a debian system, you've also spent the time to learn this ritual and you've had to comprehend the complexities of what, how and why to do this. Just to…

This kind of attitude is what makes FOSS good compared to (for example) ChromeOS though. It's hard to see when you've got one singular problem in front of you but once you abandon your principles and change all these things you're left with what is essentially Windows lite. It might be popular but it's hardly an improvement.

If you don't jump the hoops you're just left with a machine that only runs windows.

The choice is literally between the non free firmware or your wifi and ethernet cards will not work.

Re: Debian and firmware

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As bad as it is in the short term the only way we'll see long term change is to keep the friction on. It's this friction that forces the change of habit to support manufacturers who open their firmware. If it's seamless then there's no incentive to seek out the open option next time you buy. The only friction you're causing is to Debian users. My current laptop is Arch after 5 laptops that ran Debian. My Debian desk…

I doubt that has anything to do with "friction", Debian's release cycle just isn't compatible with wanting to run new hardware. Drivers are distributed via the kernel, Debian uses old kernels and can't afford to do the same kind of hardware enablement backports that Red Hat, SUSE and Canonical can do, so being stuck with the old kernel means poor support for brand new hardware.

Not sure why you're talking about new hardware. The graphics card is now 4 years olds.
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