Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can be hourly and exempt. You can be paid a fixed salary and be non-exempt. There are also many salaried people who fill out timecards. Edit to your edit: > my "often accurate" generalization here is not accurate often enough to be worth saying, which I'm willing to believe. No level of detail in a HN comment can substitute for hours of research and talking with a lawyer Your generalization is frequently incorrec…
Just to be clear -- frequently incorrect even among HN readers? I would think one or more of these exemptions apply to just about everyone likely to read these comments who has a job, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding them.
California considers a shortened, 32-hour workweek for larger companies
111–120 of 138 posts
Re: California considers a shortened, 32-hour workweek for larger companies
#112Considering the companies they are talking about here, wouldn't it just be better to work towards a more goal driven work agreement? Show up, do what is required and then the time is yours? If you're being paid regardless then what does it matter if you're "on the bench" for a few hours or you leave early for the day? A lot, if we're talking about employee morale. Not much if someone is sitting at their desk trying t…
People with the liberty to have goal driven work are generally exempt (there is also a pay threshold, but the freedom of goal-driven work usually only comes with sufficient pay to meet it), and not the workers impacted by this bill. Giving people the freedom of goal driven work and the minimum salary for exempt status is a way for employers to not have to worry about this requirement, which does push people to that by making it more expensive not to do it.
Re: California considers a shortened, 32-hour workweek for larger companies
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
The argument on who pays for health care is the wrong question. When paying cash for an MRI is $500, and via Health Insurance it is $5,000. There are bigger issues. I used to get a weekly shot. Paid my $60 dollar co-pay. They billed insurance another $120 or so. Eventually I asked what the cash price is. $17 dollars. Was a real WTF?! moment.
You aren't paying attention - critical thinking? The point is that employers can and will "adjust" in the same way on this.
To pay people more, companies had to get highly creative. Lots of "perks". Company cars, hotels, etc. Insurance was one such method. Our entire Health Insurance Industry came from companies and people avoiding absurd taxes. Now things are absurd in other ways.
Re: California considers a shortened, 32-hour workweek for larger companies
#114I think this is hard for California to do alone, and too big of a step. Federally, we should move to a 36 hour workweek. Maybe with a long term plan of getting to 32.
Maybe sometimes it is best to aim a bit higher than what you'd settle for. Perhaps Cali considering 32 hrs is the push the US needs for 36 hrs.
Re: California considers a shortened, 32-hour workweek for larger companies
#115Would schools be going to a 4 day week?
Or would California be paying all its teachers an extra 8h of overtime each week? How would that impact school budgets financed by property taxes... oh... wait... California.
Or would instruction hours be reduced to 6h/day? But the total required days and instructional minutes remains the same ( https://www.cde.ca.gov/fg/aa/pa/instructionaltimetable.asp ) which means that the school year would be longer no matter which way its done to avoid having teachers need to get more (not saying they shouldn't, but the way this is proposal is phrased, it appears that they would need to be).
How would this impact private schools?
As many families effectively use school as child supervision for the work week, how would any changes to the duration a child is supervised at school impact a family that doesn't have adults working on the same schedule as the school (e.g. school went to a 4 day week with Fridays off and parents work a 4 day week with Mondays off)?
Re: California considers a shortened, 32-hour workweek for larger companies
#116So basically everyone affected will have their hours cut without a change in hourly wage. All these people are then going to have to find a second job to avoid losing 20% of their income. How is that not going to happen?
Calfironia is mandating that everyone currently employed when this goes through get a pay raise that can't be cut back. This, however, wouldn't be able to practically impact future hires or readjustments of pay bands. So, all future employees would likely see a pay cut. Bob was working at $20/h prior to the 32. When the change happens, Bob is now working at $25/h. When Charlie joins working at 32h/w, Charlie will be…
And modern jobs aren't productive for 40 hours per week of ass-in-seats. I can tell you my case is more extreme, the best work of my career as an algorithmist (like an inventor) amounts to like an hour over the course of over a decade. So Chilean ingenegreros comerciales (pathologically avaricious businessmen) see that and say, OK for that decade with one productive hour, we'll pay you one hour of wages. If you want a decade of wages, perform what you performed in that miraculous hour 30,000 times.
And in fact, now that the company gets 32 hours out of people, people can spend more time working the job market, and might need more Bobs and Charlies altogether to have the amount of authority their egos crave, so the job market tightens up, raising wages. I think this happened with previous hour decreases in like the twenties and thirties, it's been shown that is great for workers. That just came to a complete stop in the forties, no progress since then, despite Keynes for example predicting by now we'd be working twelve hour weeks. And getting more time outside the office, in particular by commuting one less day, that's huge. Employers lose 8 hours of the in fact negative returns on time spent in the office, so really they're losing nothing but power (which to be fair is what being a boss is truly all about), but they gain money from more creative workers, and then the worker doesn't gain 8 hours, he gains 11 hours, of the worst hours he spends in the office, when he's most tired. Then he goes home and does things that make him more creative when he goes back to the office, like a hobby or woodworking or homeschooling and charges his boss nothing for it, the boss ought to be grateful, do you know any who are?
So France imposed fewer hours specifically to get companies to hire more workers. California is not doing it with that in mind, but it will be a side-effect. French companies hated that, in fact making sacrifices to make the statistical results of that move look bad, diametrically contrary to the enormous benefits shown in the early twentieth century. You think companies can't collude on statistics?
So Purdue Pharma may call itself a pharmaceutical company but it's not, it's a mathematical research institute that uses brilliant new theorems involving the equals sign to make billions of dollars. So for OxyContin, they demonstrated to FDA that 7==12 and that theorem made them tens of billions, then they tried 60==100 and eureka! They made great money too with methylphenidate hydrochloride with that innovative theorem, how do they keep coming up with this stuff?
So then, theorem in hand, they first lobbied and who knows what else to reduce methylphenidate chlorhidrate dosage limits from 100 to 60, then they introduced methylphenidate hydrochloride as the only methylphenidate available above 60 milligrams, up to 100 mg, and made it extremely painful just motherfucking brutal for doctors to complete the form for patients who were prescribed more than the new limit that were grandfathered in. Like it's the most horrible thing you can ask a psychiatrist to do, nothing compares with that form literally bureaucratic sadism, Kafka for doctors. Their shit costs $500 a month, whereas methylphenidate chlorhydrate is under $20, generic. Basically patented methylphenidate chlorhydrate again seventy years after it was patented by Novartis.
Re: California considers a shortened, 32-hour workweek for larger companies
#117Considering the companies they are talking about here, wouldn't it just be better to work towards a more goal driven work agreement? Show up, do what is required and then the time is yours? If you're being paid regardless then what does it matter if you're "on the bench" for a few hours or you leave early for the day? A lot, if we're talking about employee morale. Not much if someone is sitting at their desk trying t…
I live and work in France, where you legally have 5 weeks of PTO. The 5th week has been introduced 40 years ago. And yet, it's still hard for a lot of HR departments to make sure that employees properly take all of their PTO each year. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief, left unsupervised with goals to reach, it seems that most people tend to overwork themselves rather than laze off.
Re: California considers a shortened, 32-hour workweek for larger companies
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
Calfironia is mandating that everyone currently employed when this goes through get a pay raise that can't be cut back. This, however, wouldn't be able to practically impact future hires or readjustments of pay bands. So, all future employees would likely see a pay cut. Bob was working at $20/h prior to the 32. When the change happens, Bob is now working at $25/h. When Charlie joins working at 32h/w, Charlie will be…
No, it's two different things, the hours and the wage. It's not just hourly wage. I can tell you companies are super square, making no deals where an employee can work a bit fewer hours a week, for a bit less money. If you want to work even 10% less hours, they cut your salary in half. And usually they start there and work on ways to cut you down again and again. And modern jobs aren't productive for 40 hours per wee…
What about teachers? office administrative staff? tech support? data center operations? building facilities and maintenance? bus drivers? health care professionals?
There are many situations where this represents an increase in labor costs or a reduction of services for that role. Tech support working only 32h/week means that the company needs an additional 20% staff to maintain the same coverage (or do you not offer external tech support on Fridays?).
Similarly, bus drivers working an 8h day means that either you need 20% more bus drivers or you are paying the existing ones an additional 12h of work (1.5x overtime for 8h) to maintain the same level of service.
Creative office workers will likely not see too much of a hit - especially if it means removing less productive meetings. However, the rest of the world that isn't working in an office would be severely impacted by this - especially people who depend upon parts of the industry such as public transportation or health care professionals where this represents an increase in costs.
Re: California considers a shortened, 32-hour workweek for larger companies
#119What business is this of the California government? I am 71 and a large fraction of my work life has been 32 hour work weeks, negotiated with my employers (I usually got 80% salary and 100% vacation and benefits). It boggles my mind that this would be made a law though. Individuals and their employers should work out any deal that makes sense for both parties.
It's the business of the government because for most people otherwise it's a race to the bottom. If you are in a position where you could negotiate a 32h work week for most of your life you're in a privileged position. From your bio you hold 55 patents and have written 20 books, do you think that's the position most workers are in? Most people in the US have practically no vacation compared to the rest of the develop…
Re: California considers a shortened, 32-hour workweek for larger companies
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
> they put in a policy requiring an email at the end of every of what we did Every day? Every week? You left out a word. Every day would be awful. Every week isn't bad. At my work, we recently implemented a Slack bot that would ask you on Friday what you got done, what you wanted to get done but didn't, if you have any blockers, and what you hope to accomplish next week. Honestly, when it was first deployed, I hated…
Whoops. Every day. Goes to the PM and section boss. The latter doesn't look at it. My former PM also didn't look at it. Just a CYA type thing I guess. Passing blockers and the like the way you do it seems decent.
That's just bonkers.
I had a guy in a previous position that had a manager that started asking for those kinds of updated every Mon/Wed/Fri. After it became clear that he wasn't even reading the messages (The manager would ask about things he had just included in his report an hour prior), he started including gibberish in them.
It was a month before the gibberish was noticed. The boss was noticeably upset when he discovered the last month had been gibberish, but conceded that obviously the reports are a waste of time and stopped asking for them.