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Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

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Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#191
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean a strong yearly tax on home ownership with an exemption for primary residences.

Why should investment properties be taxed worse than say, stocks? If property is expensive, it means there's a demand for it. The price is a good signal that the area needs more properties built. It's only the gov't (local gov't perhaps, or NIMBYs) that are stopping it from happening. Raising taxes isn't going to fix the problem. It only forces existing investors who are on the margins to get pushed out.

> Why should investment properties be taxed worse than say, stocks

Because they are a fundamental human need, and in limited supply. Good land is fundamentally limited. You can't build more of it.

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#192
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The theory of that, and the reality of it are two different things. As someone who has been on both sides of this in Ontario, I can tell you for a fact that blind bidding results in people over paying, and never knowing by how much. The stress of buying a home in the GTA has lead people to stretch their budgets beyond reasonable limits, and realtors have only made it worse now. In recent years it's started to become…

Yep, house on my street was listed for $950k a few weeks ago and sold for almost $1.4m. In my area (Kitchener/Waterloo), every house is selling for $250k-$500k above asking.

Houses are listed artificially below market to expand interest and create bidding wars. No one expected to sell for $950k and if that was the only offer they got it would have been rejected. I had this experience on a property in Toronto where they listed at $1.5 million didn’t get a bidding war, rejected our offer, relisted at $1.71 million and eventually sold.

Above asking is a meaningless number because asking isn’t a reflection of what anyone expects a house to go for. It’s a game price designed to attract as many of the right people as possible to the property.

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#193
post #187
post #98

I'm a homeowner in Toronto and I don't think this will help. They've eliminated a small number of buyers from the market but have added other incentives like a first home buyers tax credit that will only fuel the fire - Australia tried this with tragic results. >> working with provinces and territories to develop and implement a Home Buyers’ Bill of Rights and bring forward a national plan to end blind bidding. Blind…

The one advantage of blind bidding is the slowness. You’re able to consult with everyone you need to between bids. In a live auction you might not get to call your family before having to decide if you want to go $10k higher. Even if your wife is there you don’t have time for an extended discussion on whether it’s worthwhile.

This makes me wonder why not just use a one-time second price auction? In that case everyone just needs to huddle up with their family once, submit their maximum price for the house, and know that they won't have a risk of over-paying relative to everyone else's valuation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickrey_auction

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Realtors are (transparently disclosed as) working for the seller. Why wouldn't they do that? It's literally their job and everyone knows it. It's certainly the case that the agent who knows that a particular bidder is the highest/most attractive offer is working for the seller.

The buyer's realtor is supposed to be working in the buyer's best interest and getting the lowest price possible. In reality it doesn't often work that way, especially when the buyer and seller realtors know each other. I just bought a house and both realtors ended up being from the same office, and are good friends. Do I honestly think I got the best price? Not likely.

Maybe it’s different in Canada, but in the US (or at least in Massachusetts and New Hampshire) the agent merely must disclose to whom they owe allegiance. In both of my purchase transactions, the agent I worked most consistently with was legally working for the seller. (I was comfortable with that and acted accordingly, having “my” agent submit bids that I was comfortable with, but not treating/trusting them as if they were my lawyer).

You can have an agent working on behalf of the buyer, but my experience is that’s a minority rather than majority arrangement.

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#195
post #98

I'm a homeowner in Toronto and I don't think this will help. They've eliminated a small number of buyers from the market but have added other incentives like a first home buyers tax credit that will only fuel the fire - Australia tried this with tragic results. >> working with provinces and territories to develop and implement a Home Buyers’ Bill of Rights and bring forward a national plan to end blind bidding. Blind…

I live in Toronto as well. We make a good income, have large savings for a down payment, and recently thought about buying a house. It's depressing.

So, I decided to look at the City Plan -- to see what the actual plan is for addressing the housing cost crisis in Toronto.

Not surprisingly, the real problem became very clear to me, almost immediately.

The problem is not blind bidding.

The problem is not foreign buyers.

The problem is not low interest rates.

The problem is the official city plan is 100% a NIMBY plan.

From the plan itself:

> While communities experience constant social and demographic change, the general physical character of Toronto’s residential Neighbourhoods endures.

In other words, let's not change our back yards.

> Physical changes to our established Neighbourhoods must be sensitive, gradual and “fit” the existing physical character.

Again -- this means that the large inner-city neighborhoods full of mansions (such as Rosedale and Forest Hill), have to stay full of mansions.

Just to spell it out:

> If, for example, an existing zoning by-law permits only single detached houses in a particular geographic neighbourhood and the prevailing building type in that neighbourhood is single detached dwellings, then the Plan’s policies are to be interpreted to allow only single detached dwellings in order to respect and reinforce the established physical character of the neighbourhood

You see this reflected in the development that does happen. Yonge & Eglinton just gets more dense -- because that's the "character" of the neighborhood. Meanwhile, in "fancy" neighborhoods, housing often gets less dense, because that conforms to the "prevailing" characteristic of the neighborhood.

With the current plan, the city is going to be a city with super high density combined with ultra low density and very little in-between. In other words, it will be full of wonderful enclaves for the wealthy, and sardine-can housing for everyone else.

This, of course, leads to issues such as the lack of schools available in the Yonge & Eglinton area, anod overcrowded transit, not to mention the lack of quality housing for families with two kids. (Try finding a decently sized 3 bedroom unit near playgrounds and schools. Yikes.)

The solution, would be to allow more medium and low rise development throughout neighborhoods. The "character" of the existing neighbourhoods should be allowed to change.

I don't blame Toronto though, this is a problem that is happening in most wealthy cities in North America. Doesn't mean we can't do better. We should.

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/97dd-cp-of...

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#196
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The theory of that, and the reality of it are two different things. As someone who has been on both sides of this in Ontario, I can tell you for a fact that blind bidding results in people over paying, and never knowing by how much. The stress of buying a home in the GTA has lead people to stretch their budgets beyond reasonable limits, and realtors have only made it worse now. In recent years it's started to become…

This is wrong on a few levels. 1) as someone who has been on the ground as well, I’ve lost a few offers because I was worried about over paying. On multiple occasions, after seeing what it sold for we thought “damn, we woulda paid another $25K on top to get it had we known.” 2) Canadian banks has a very conservative “stress test” for securing mortgages. This includes qualifying at much higher rates then is being offe…

It’s still quite possible to stretch yourself. Variable mortgages are common and interest rates are going up at a rapid clip. It’s possible for them to rise further than the stress test numbers. Refinancing in five years may be painful if you got a mortgage at 1.5%, stress tested for 3.5% and refinanced at 5%.

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#197
post #187
post #98

I'm a homeowner in Toronto and I don't think this will help. They've eliminated a small number of buyers from the market but have added other incentives like a first home buyers tax credit that will only fuel the fire - Australia tried this with tragic results. >> working with provinces and territories to develop and implement a Home Buyers’ Bill of Rights and bring forward a national plan to end blind bidding. Blind…

The one advantage of blind bidding is the slowness. You’re able to consult with everyone you need to between bids. In a live auction you might not get to call your family before having to decide if you want to go $10k higher. Even if your wife is there you don’t have time for an extended discussion on whether it’s worthwhile.

Getting rid of blind bidding doesn't mean it's replaced with a live real-time auction.

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#198
post #187
post #98

I'm a homeowner in Toronto and I don't think this will help. They've eliminated a small number of buyers from the market but have added other incentives like a first home buyers tax credit that will only fuel the fire - Australia tried this with tragic results. >> working with provinces and territories to develop and implement a Home Buyers’ Bill of Rights and bring forward a national plan to end blind bidding. Blind…

The one advantage of blind bidding is the slowness. You’re able to consult with everyone you need to between bids. In a live auction you might not get to call your family before having to decide if you want to go $10k higher. Even if your wife is there you don’t have time for an extended discussion on whether it’s worthwhile.

I have found straight up bidding to be a much slower process. You don't have to immediately respond, if an estate agent is applying pressure you should just ignore them and respond with your bid when you're ready.

On the other side if the sellers aren't happy with the highest bid they can just keep waiting for more people to turn up.

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#199
post #187
post #98

I'm a homeowner in Toronto and I don't think this will help. They've eliminated a small number of buyers from the market but have added other incentives like a first home buyers tax credit that will only fuel the fire - Australia tried this with tragic results. >> working with provinces and territories to develop and implement a Home Buyers’ Bill of Rights and bring forward a national plan to end blind bidding. Blind…

The one advantage of blind bidding is the slowness. You’re able to consult with everyone you need to between bids. In a live auction you might not get to call your family before having to decide if you want to go $10k higher. Even if your wife is there you don’t have time for an extended discussion on whether it’s worthwhile.

Wouldn’t people set a maximum ceiling beyond which they would not go? Like you make your initial bid, which would not be the maximum and you go up till you win or you hit your max.

If you bade your maximum already then obviously you’re out of contention.

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would taxing do anything in this specific case? Foreign investors are already willing to pay millions in a single home just for it to lay empty, from what I read in this thread. Why would some fixed (even if progressive) tax on top of that change the demand?

Presumably if it was high enough they would move onto other investments that are comparatively more profitable when accounting for the tax. It would have to be a heck of a tax to keep up with how Canadian house prices have been inflating recently though.

Yeah, that seems the crux of the problem: price rising is exponential, a fixed tax can't offset it.
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