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UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

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Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#311

Post by pydry »

smcl wrote: post #279
pydry wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were 5x more likely to be purged from the Labour party as a Jew than as a non Jew: https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/labour-is-pu... This wasnt antiracists purging antisemites. It was racists purging antiracists.

This "5x more likely" sounds horrific ... until you look at how it was reached: """ According to Labour statistics, by March 2021 there had been 1,450 "actioned complaints" against Labour party members in relation to allegations of antisemitism - equivalent to 0.29 percent of Labour’s membership, which averaged 500,000 between 2015 and 2020, when Corbyn was leader. By contrast, says JVL, there were at least 35 action…

>Having 35 "actioned complaints" against Jewish members does not sound like a purge from the Labour Party

35 isnt a purge. > 1000 IS a purge. The fact that being an Jewish made it 5x more likely you would be purged simply underscored the fact that it was exclusively a project to purge anti-racists who were critical of Israel.

This point was underscored again when the party hired an ex Israeli intelligence agent.

Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#312

Post by [deleted] »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #309
throwaway67743 wrote: post #304

There is a point being totally missed in this thread and that is the UK government basically ignore all security common sense and do absolutely incomprehensible things like discuss national security over WhatsApp and Zoom, as a British citizen, in my eyes this absolutely amounts to treason as they're knowingly potentially giving away state secrets, anyone else would be instantly jailed. UK government and any departme…

I used to think that is an issue with old non-technical generation and therefore it is argument for new blood. But.. new blood is about as careless about sharing all sorts of information online as old blood. I don't know if there is a solution to this. I am starting to wonder if it is one of those 'best not to think about it' things.

[deleted]

Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#313

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

yyyk wrote: post #291
P-ala-din wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the idea of Israel being a Jewish state That was only very recently codified and was very controversial inside and outside of israel. > They use it in very specific circumstances I'm sorry but that's just incorrect, it's been used much more broadly. for example according to Noam Chomsky: "Actually, the locus classicus, the best formulation of this, was by an ambassador to the United Nations, Abba Eban, Israel's amb…

>That was only very recently codified and was very controversial inside and outside of israel. Very recently as in 'in the UN assembly resolution authorizing the creation of Israel' (1947) or the 1985 basic law etc. >Noam Chomsky Noted genocide denier (repeatedly) with zero credibility on anything.

I don't often respond to claims like these, but I think it might be necessary to in this case. I am not sure what sources you used to inform those claims, but I will simply say that in both cases both are misleading.

Noam Chomsky is a lot of things, but 'genocide denier' label is at best inaccurate and, more importantly, does not automatically make him wrong on any other issue. I get that character assassination works well, but this is HN, where stuff like that will be called out.

"That was only very recently codified and was very controversial inside and outside of Israel.

Very recently as in 'in the UN assembly resolution authorizing the creation of Israel' (1947) or the 1985 basic law etc."

I think parent is referring to this piece of legislation[1]. I might be wrong, but if not, that would strike me as recent.

[1]https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-n...

Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#314

Post by tomxor »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #309
throwaway67743 wrote: post #304

There is a point being totally missed in this thread and that is the UK government basically ignore all security common sense and do absolutely incomprehensible things like discuss national security over WhatsApp and Zoom, as a British citizen, in my eyes this absolutely amounts to treason as they're knowingly potentially giving away state secrets, anyone else would be instantly jailed. UK government and any departme…

I used to think that is an issue with old non-technical generation and therefore it is argument for new blood. But.. new blood is about as careless about sharing all sorts of information online as old blood. I don't know if there is a solution to this. I am starting to wonder if it is one of those 'best not to think about it' things.

It's the same problem as the lack of widespread technical comprehension in the general public.

New blood politicians may know more about tech, phones and services from a _user_ perspective, but most of them are still politicians, not engineers - and just like the vast majority of the general public, will mostly not appreciate the implications of any details bellow the surface of modern technology. What we think of as common sense are based on principles in this domain that is invisible to most people.

There is no simple solution to this. For government specifically, perhaps a new specialised division that dictates policy for technology use throughout the government (I say new because I would not be surprised if some antiquated and dysfunctional version of this already exists).

Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#315

Post by thedeadfish »

throwaway67743 wrote: post #304

There is a point being totally missed in this thread and that is the UK government basically ignore all security common sense and do absolutely incomprehensible things like discuss national security over WhatsApp and Zoom, as a British citizen, in my eyes this absolutely amounts to treason as they're knowingly potentially giving away state secrets, anyone else would be instantly jailed. UK government and any departme…

The UK government hates its own country and people, why would they bother with something so trivial as national security. That would be like a serial killer worrying about infection whilst dismembering their victim.

Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#316

Post by yyyk »

cyberpunk wrote: post #307
yyyk wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comparison is to the rhetoric used to ignore bigotry (see the absurd defence of Corbyn in the comments). The alleged sins of a country are irrelevant to that issue.

Please show me where Corbyn said anything against Jewish people for being jewish? He, like me, is strongly against the Israeli occupation of Palestine and the war crimes it commits against its peoples in exercise of that. Saying so does not make you a bigot or an anti semite. Israel and it's defenders hide behind these kind of statements and they're nonsense. Labour if elected would not have given Israel such an easy…

Nearly all of the statements and actions in issue with Corbyn have nothing whatsoever to do with Israel. 99.9999% politicians manage to avoid antisemitic murals and endorsing antisemitic books just fine.

It's not remotely difficult, and I'm sure 99.999999% of Labour Leftists with nigh-identical positions would not be so compromised. Can't understand why the Labour Left had to (politically) die on that hill.

Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#317

Post by Chris2048 »

yyyk wrote: post #301
Chris2048 wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's actual bigotry as implied by "too much" - your comment is truly rhetoric as it cheaply dismisses this claim as "mindless" and makes a poor tribal comparison - African-Americans aren't currently occupying another state.

The comparison is to the rhetoric used to ignore bigotry (see the absurd defence of Corbyn in the comments). The alleged sins of a country are irrelevant to that issue.

So the topic you wish to discuss is "rhetoric used to ignore bigotry".

Feel free to demonstrate where this exists in the comment you replied to. I can just as easily decide the more relevant topic is "rhetoric used to ignore ethnic nationalism", which your post could be.

EDIT:

I'd also note the comment you replied to says:

> Israel plays the anti-semitism card much too loosely to be taken seriously

your own comment elsewhere (on Noam Chomsky):

> Noted genocide denier (repeatedly) with zero credibility on anything.

Why is dismissive labelling ok in one case, and not another?

Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#318

Post by smcl »

pydry wrote: post #311
smcl wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "5x more likely" sounds horrific ... until you look at how it was reached: """ According to Labour statistics, by March 2021 there had been 1,450 "actioned complaints" against Labour party members in relation to allegations of antisemitism - equivalent to 0.29 percent of Labour’s membership, which averaged 500,000 between 2015 and 2020, when Corbyn was leader. By contrast, says JVL, there were at least 35 action…

>Having 35 "actioned complaints" against Jewish members does not sound like a purge from the Labour Party 35 isnt a purge. > 1000 IS a purge. The fact that being an Jewish made it 5x more likely you would be purged simply underscored the fact that it was exclusively a project to purge anti-racists who were critical of Israel. This point was underscored again when the party hired an ex Israeli intelligence agent.

I have misunderstood you then, I thought you were saying this was an purge designed to target Jewish members of the party, which didn’t seem to be the case to me.

Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#319

Post by yyyk »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #313
yyyk wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That was only very recently codified and was very controversial inside and outside of israel. Very recently as in 'in the UN assembly resolution authorizing the creation of Israel' (1947) or the 1985 basic law etc. >Noam Chomsky Noted genocide denier (repeatedly) with zero credibility on anything.

I don't often respond to claims like these, but I think it might be necessary to in this case. I am not sure what sources you used to inform those claims, but I will simply say that in both cases both are misleading. Noam Chomsky is a lot of things, but 'genocide denier' label is at best inaccurate and, more importantly, does not automatically make him wrong on any other issue. I get that character assassination work…

The quote in question provides no sources beyond that Chomsky said it (no direct sources or anything). So the question of Chomsky's credibility is important, and well, Chomsky's own record in the Balkans and earlier in Cambodia speaks for itself.

>I think parent is referring to this piece of legislation

I believe you are right, but the particular issue parent's objecting to is not new at all [EDIT: Note that parent clarified his position in a later comment].

Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#320

Post by P-ala-din »

yyyk wrote: post #291
P-ala-din wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the idea of Israel being a Jewish state That was only very recently codified and was very controversial inside and outside of israel. > They use it in very specific circumstances I'm sorry but that's just incorrect, it's been used much more broadly. for example according to Noam Chomsky: "Actually, the locus classicus, the best formulation of this, was by an ambassador to the United Nations, Abba Eban, Israel's amb…

>That was only very recently codified and was very controversial inside and outside of israel. Very recently as in 'in the UN assembly resolution authorizing the creation of Israel' (1947) or the 1985 basic law etc. >Noam Chomsky Noted genocide denier (repeatedly) with zero credibility on anything.

> Very recently as in 'in the UN assembly resolution authorizing the creation of Israel' (1947) or the 1985 basic law etc.

You are correct. I'm sorry. I was misremembering the news from when "Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People" [1] was passed in 2018. My bad, I can no longer edit my post though. So apparently "Jewish ethnic homeland in Palestine", "Jewish state" and "Jewish nation-state" mean different things and have different connotations. The latter being the recent and most controversial one.

for people that want to check the resolution referenced is UNGA181.[2]

Turns out the Palestinian opposition to the term is because they see it as giving up on their right of return (given to them by UNGA194 [3] )

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Natio...

[2] - https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/res181.asp

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