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Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

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151–160 of 168 posts

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#151
post #42

I think it’s pretty clear that sophisticated societies existed long before recorded history. They may not have had the tools of working with metal, but they definitely had sophisticated philosophical views and moral frameworks. I would bet this goes back even 30-50 thousand years. This idea that humanity sprang up out of nothing in Sumerian/Babylon is very contrived. There was an ice age ten thousand years ago, the c…

Civilization means people living in cities. To do that, agriculture is probably needed. There's also probably some level of specialization and accompanying social stratification. History is written records. There were many prehistoric societies, but because civilization tended to have some form of written records, the prehistoric societies are not considered civilizations. No scholars would clai that humanity sprang…

Sorry to do an "actually" here but funnily enough history is not historically written records. History as a branch of knowledge was specifically operated upon the context that the likelihood of something happening historically is based on the individual's effort to ascertain the word of mouth of the people to find certainty and consistency. That is because what is written can easily be done by anyone but convincing many people over generations would be much harder. So the fact that history has shifted to what is written as the authority is actually a successful implementation of an attack vector to manipulate truth.

tl;dr Historically oral history was the only form of discovering what is true and specifically regarded as more rigorous than written accounts.

At least, when taking history into account.

Etymology is also interesting:

> From Middle English historie, from Old French estoire, estorie (“chronicle, history, story”) (French histoire), from Latin historia, from Ancient Greek ἱστορίᾱ (historíā, “learning through research”), from ἱστορέω (historéō, “to research, inquire (and) record”), from ἵστωρ (hístōr, “the knowing, wise one”), from Proto-Indo-European *weyd- (“see, know”). Doublet of story and storey.

Fascinating that history is based on "seeing and knowing."

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#152
post #42

I think it’s pretty clear that sophisticated societies existed long before recorded history. They may not have had the tools of working with metal, but they definitely had sophisticated philosophical views and moral frameworks. I would bet this goes back even 30-50 thousand years. This idea that humanity sprang up out of nothing in Sumerian/Babylon is very contrived. There was an ice age ten thousand years ago, the c…

Civilization means people living in cities. To do that, agriculture is probably needed. There's also probably some level of specialization and accompanying social stratification. History is written records. There were many prehistoric societies, but because civilization tended to have some form of written records, the prehistoric societies are not considered civilizations. No scholars would clai that humanity sprang…

Then the Incans, mayas, and other civilizations which didn't have a writing systems are considered primitive??

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#153
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. If you lived near a lake in the endorheic basin at the end of the Danube, it would sure seem like the whole world had flooded when the Black Sea came flooding in. Protip: the Bible can still be the literal word of God, because omnipotence implies the ability to use simile, metaphor, analogy, symbolism, and storytelling tropes.

As well as inconsistent and even self-contradictory.

Could you give some evidence for that? Could you reference specific inconsistencies and contradictions?

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#154
post #138

> since there’s no evidence that Mesolithic people were seafarers, who knows if there were people living there? Whyyyyyy? To hedge your bets with "no evidence" that these people managed to navigate shallow sea waters to a nearby island, which they had inhabited for thousands of years and knew like the back of their hand , seems… unnecessary? Disrespectful? I mean, we already know Mesolithic "hunter gatherers" managed…

Here are some citations which support you.

From https://researchframeworks.org/maritime/the-mesolithic/#sect...

> Evidence for Mesolithic seafaring includes the colonisation of islands involving long sea journeys, such as Shetland and the Outer Hebrides (Warren 2005), as well as the location of sites on islands involving very difficult sea crossings, such as Ynys Enlli (Bardsey Island) in North Wales, where one must negotiate the treacherous Swnt Enlli (Edmonds et al 2009).

From https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030544031...

> Tolan-Smith (2008, 151) notes that at this point there is clear evidence for Mesolithic seafaring, with Ireland being occupied along with the Isle of Man, Rhum, the Hebridean Archipelago and Howick on the East coast of England. Thus, as Warren (2005) and Garrow and Sturt (2011) have argued, there is ample evidence for a strong seafaring tradition in the Mesolithic.

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like unjustified speculation; people could look at e.g. people leaving cookies and milk out on Christmas Eve as an example of how modern Americans are poor at abstraction and have to give literal offerings to their god Santa Claus. AFAWK there has been no significant change in the anatomy of humans in the past 200k years, and similarly nothing to indicate that we’ve had major changes in things like our abi…

You can always find examples of irrational behavior, but the difference is scale. Today a major state isn't spending inordinate resources to ensure that the cookies left for Santa are prepared using the finest ingredients (say, a few million dollars' worth of gold) by the most accomplished bakers, and then placed on a dish so large that it can be seen from space (and hundreds or thousands of people died making it). I…

Christmas is a major part of economics.

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#156
post #153
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As well as inconsistent and even self-contradictory.

Could you give some evidence for that? Could you reference specific inconsistencies and contradictions?

Have you genuinely been unable to identify any? They're manifest and generally well documented.

A nicely topical example, given we've just had Easter, would be around the time of the crucifixion -- was it at 9am on the morning of Passover, or midday the day after passover?

The gospels provide conflicting timelines - Mathew, Mark, & Luke say 9am on passover, John says the afternoon the day after passover. There are myriad other contradictions around the descriptions of the crucifixion mythology: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Contradictions_in_Jesus%27_cru...

This may be a useful jumping-off point for other inconsistencies:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_contradictions

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#157
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I've ever seen "literal mindedness" argued like this in recent works? Do you have any papers or books you could point to where an archeologist or historian argues this? Most of the recent academic work I'm familiar with tends to emphasize the opposite case, tempered by the fact that ancient religion and culture tend to be very alien. Take, for instance, popular reviews by Irving Finkel in his "Noah" book…

Well, I am a working professional historian of the premodern world, and this is certainly my impression from years of reading Chinese-language primary sources about China during the Shang, Zhou, Qin, and Han dynasties. Spend some time with the literature, and you'll read how Mohists coupled careful logic and quasi-scientistic reasoning with "ghosts who will punish you if you're bad," about how Han dynasty tomb exteri…

Sounds like I have reading to do! I guess I really just take exception with the claim that the currently living are any more (or less) literal than our (distant) ancestors. For instance: my wife wants to get two, adjacent, cemetary plots so that we can "be together after we die, and our kids can visit us easily." I want to be mulched. Where I'm living, now, the number of Biblical literalists isn't a "quirky few" its the bulk of the people; these aren't hicks, either: this is one if the wealthier exurbs in the country.

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because complex social structures tend to be innovations and inventions similar to those in the physical realm. It thus stands to reason that a 'social evolution' has taken place over the millennia, and there's ample evidence of that progress in the world around you. No one says prehistoric humans were individually simpletons, just that societally they were far simpler (as in strictly less advanced).

What you mean isn't something many of the relevant experts would agree with, but the words in the second sentence aren't bad. Similarly to biological evolution, on any sufficiently long time scale the descendents aren't more advanced, simply better adapted to different conditions. Our ancestors' societies reflected wildly different contraints and path dependence, not primitiveness.

>Similarly to biological evolution, on any sufficiently long time scale the descendents aren't more advanced, simply better adapted to different conditions. Our ancestors' societies reflected wildly different contraints and path dependence, not primitiveness.

I understand what you mean, yet I refuse to call concepts like universal human rights, rule of law and the unacceptability of war crimes as simply different adaptations, as opposed to being strictly more advanced than the predecessor ideas.

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you mean isn't something many of the relevant experts would agree with, but the words in the second sentence aren't bad. Similarly to biological evolution, on any sufficiently long time scale the descendents aren't more advanced, simply better adapted to different conditions. Our ancestors' societies reflected wildly different contraints and path dependence, not primitiveness.

>Similarly to biological evolution, on any sufficiently long time scale the descendents aren't more advanced, simply better adapted to different conditions. Our ancestors' societies reflected wildly different contraints and path dependence, not primitiveness. I understand what you mean, yet I refuse to call concepts like universal human rights, rule of law and the unacceptability of war crimes as simply different ada…

That's fine, you can take whatever moral stance you want. It just doesn't have any place in scientific discussion.

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#160
post #105
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great flood maybe, but we don't have any actual proof that Atlantis was some ancient legend vs something Plato just made up and said he heard from someone else since there are no previous accounts of it before him.

Also, please bear in mind that there's a good reason to suspect that Plato bent a lot of things to suit his goal of trying to explain philosophical concepts. Socrates is often hailed as one of the greatest western philosophers but we have almost no record of his character outside the dramatizations written by Plato. We're almost certain he was a real person but if Plato is to be trusted he was extremely against any p…

While I agree with you about Plato, I think you are underestimating our other sources on Socrates. The historian Xenephon was also one of his students and talked about him in his works, including Socrates' trial and death. The playwright Aristophanes also parodied Socrates in one of his works and while it is a parody what it is parodying is consistent with what we know of Socrates' philosophy as presented by Plato and shows he was a fairly well known figure at least among the play going audience.
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