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UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

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Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#291

Post by yyyk »

P-ala-din wrote: post #233
gpt5 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel plays the anti-semitism card much too loosely to be taken seriously They use it in very specific circumstances that relate to criticizing the idea of Israel being a Jewish state. I can understand that people may innocently criticize this, due to missing the historical context of why Israel was created, but I agree that this form of criticism against Israel should be condemned. P.S. There are very specific ac…

> the idea of Israel being a Jewish state That was only very recently codified and was very controversial inside and outside of israel. > They use it in very specific circumstances I'm sorry but that's just incorrect, it's been used much more broadly. for example according to Noam Chomsky: "Actually, the locus classicus, the best formulation of this, was by an ambassador to the United Nations, Abba Eban, Israel's amb…

>That was only very recently codified and was very controversial inside and outside of israel.

Very recently as in 'in the UN assembly resolution authorizing the creation of Israel' (1947) or the 1985 basic law etc.

>Noam Chomsky

Noted genocide denier (repeatedly) with zero credibility on anything.

Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#292

Post by Chris2048 »

Veen wrote: post #287
coldtea wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which attitude? Basic sense?

Are you implying that all those Jews worried about anti-semitism in the Labour Party lack basic sense? I'm not sure they're likely to find that a comforting response.

No, they where clarifying what you meant, It's your opinion that "this" is the cause.

Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#293

Post by arlort »

pydry wrote: post #246
arlort wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's only viable in countries/situations where secret ballots are not a strict requirement and vote buying is not perceived to be a problem With paper ballots if you want to be sure that your vote was counted correctly you generally can go and see the counting process, as a bonus like that you help ensure that every vote is counted correctly

The only time vote buying was historically a problem was when it was decriminalized or legal and done out in the open. The instant it was criminalized it evaporated completely. Doing it on a scale that is large enough enough that it becomes meaningful quickly becomes impossible even if the police only do a few half hearted sting operations. Im not particularly in favor of electronic voting but i wish this particular…

From Wikipedia:

> The 2010 and 2012 surveys for the Americas Barometer showed that 15% of surveyed voters in Latin America had been offered something of value in exchange for voting a particular way

> 16% of voters [in Africa] were offered money or other goods in exchange for voting a particular way in the most recent election

And yeah, in developed countries and stable democracies it probably wouldn't be an issue, but then maybe it would eventually be, and it's a pretty big flaw to introduce in order to achieve something that is not an issue

You can already check that your vote is being counted with paper ballots, you sign up as a poll observer or worker and you look at the vote counting operations

Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#294

Post by mrmikardo »

bigDinosaur wrote: post #258
Synaesthesia wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are definitely some holes in the allegations. https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/04/pure-ten-poi...

Is there any particular reason this link is actually worth reading? Is 'Crag Murray' a former high-level politician/intelligence officer with useful information? Do they have a track record of finding genuine and severe issues with government narratives?

Craig is a former ambassador to Uzbekistan, who served in the Foreign Office for many years. He's since dedicated a lot of his time to following and reporting on the Assange case in the UK.

He doesn't hide his opinions, some of which are quite strongly worded, but I don't think that makes him less worthwhile as an observer. I'd say he is less of a fact-finder/whistleblower and more of an analyser/commenter.

I personally find his articles insightful and nuanced.

Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#295

Post by Chris2048 »

yyyk wrote: post #290
cyberpunk wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel plays the anti-semitism card much too loosely to be taken seriously. The issues I have with Israel are because of the actions of its government and absolutely nothing to do with the majority religion there. If you criticise Israel, you're an anti-semite. We're all scared of being called such, so we let them do whatever the fuck they want. Fuck Israel; but not because of their religion.

>Israel plays the anti-semitism card much too loosely to be taken seriously. This rhetoric is not any different than conservatives arguing Af-Am play the 'race card'. In both cases there's actual bigotry that some people want to sweep under the rug by a mindless counter-accusation.

> there's actual bigotry

as implied by "too much" - your comment is truly rhetoric as it cheaply dismisses this claim as "mindless" and makes a poor tribal comparison - African-Americans aren't currently occupying another state.

Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#296

Post by coldtea »

Veen wrote: post #287
coldtea wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which attitude? Basic sense?

Are you implying that all those Jews worried about anti-semitism in the Labour Party lack basic sense? I'm not sure they're likely to find that a comforting response.

Are you weasel-wording strawmen? Maybe, don't do that?

First, who are "all those Jews"? This is handwaving to make it sound like multitudes.

Second, people worrying about anti-semitism in the Labour party in general, either lack common sense (if we accept your argument that is "this attitude" I wrote about above that is their concern), or conflate anti-semitism (as in Hitler, Nazis, pogroms, and co) with criticism of actions by the state of Israel.

In fact, actual jews in favor of Corbyn and the party have been accused of "anti-semitism" (!) - like the Jewish Voice for Labour (jewish members of the UK Labour Party, because they are nonetheless critical about the situation with Palestine).

Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#297

Post by simonh »

ignoramous wrote: post #274
simonh wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing to be gained by wringing our hands and kicking up a public fuss, crying to the press about it. That's not how grownups do business. We all know everyone spies on everyone else, it's a given. I'm sure GCHQ spies on Israel and UAE. For all we know the security services already knew about this and were feeding false info to manipulate the UAE. Heck, the Israelis might have even tipped us off, I'm sure th…

Not saying you are wrong, but the kind of leaps in assumptions you make remind me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

I'm not making any assumptions, I'm saying we just don't know. Those like the poster I'm responding to suggesting this mean this or that for international relations, and we should be responding this way or that way are making assumptions. I'm pointing out those assumptions are unsupported and somewhat naive.

Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#298

Post by traceroute66 »

simonh wrote: post #238
nivenkos wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel was also behind many of the efforts to smear the former opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn - https://www.middleeasteye.net/fr/news/israeli-diplomat-sough... The current government is a huge ally of Israel.

Every British government has been an ally of Israel. You don't turn down a relationship with a country with Israel's military, technical and intelligence capabilities, and worth $5bn in bilateral trade for nothing if you have any sense.

> You don't turn down a relationship with a country with Israel's military, technical and intelligence capabilities, and worth $5bn in bilateral trade

Well, that's certainly one angle.

The other angle is, let's face it, Israel is good at playing the Jewish card and portraying that if you're not pro-Israel you must be some sort of antisemite.

There are all sorts of political ties along those lines, e.g. "Conservative Friends of Israel"[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Friends_of_Israel

Re: UK Government Officials Infected with Pegasus

#299

Post by yyyk »

gghhzzgghhzz wrote: post #249
cloutchaser wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe you've been downvoted to oblivion. Labour party antisemitism goes way beyond criticism of isreal, including support for hezbollah and hamas. https://labourhatesjews.wordpress.com/2017/06/05/29-examples... Also: Jeremy Corbyn faces fury after praising ‘brilliant’ book which claims Jews control world banks https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8975188/jeremy-corbyn-praises-... Corbyn also backed the artist behi…

These are again examples without context. e.g. on Hobson's book. This was a book that was widely referenced. Certainly referencing it didn't mean endorsement of Hobson's antisemitism ( a few lines in that book).. like praising the works of many other authors of the time that contain antisemetic references. Here's the then leader of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg citing Hobson. http://www.demos.co.uk/files/Liberal_m…

People who write an encouraging and approving forward to a book are endorsing what the book says, duh.

That's very different from a general reference to a phrase that a person said (Brown) or mentioning a person as part of an historic development (Clegg) - the difference between say, an historian mentioning Goebbels, compared to writing an approving forward to a new edition that a book that Goebbels wrote.

Corbyn has a long long history of happening to not notice antisemitism by people he has been encouraging.

>People take something that happened (that cannot be denied) and then insist this is proof.

How dare we look into mere evidence?! Apparently the important thing to some is that the guy is left-wing and that covers for everything.

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