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Debian and firmware

blog.einval.com

21–30 of 180 posts

Re: Debian and firmware

#21
post #16
post #14

As a long time Debian user I'm reluctant to criticize developer ergonomics as I'm not an _active_ contributor. That being said, _as a user_, I've not had any issue locating and using non-free firmware when required, and I would be disappointed to see the project change course by including non-free components in an offical manner. Removing the slight inconvenience (literally clicking a link _on the installation page_…

Principles matter!

They are the only reason I use Debian at all.

Re: Debian and firmware

#22
OpenBSD is in a similar boat and continues to fight the good fight. The developers continue to reach out to the hardware manufacturers to get permission to include firmware in OpenBSD without an NDA. Sometimes they're successful, but, more often than not, they're not. I think if more of the open source community stood steadfast in this regard, more progress could be made here. The saddest part of all this, perhaps, is we're all purchasing hardware that is, basically, useless without the firmware as it's not included with the hardware we purchased.

Re: Debian and firmware

#23
I'm usually on the FSF's side about everything, but this is one place where I disagree with them and agree with this article. A free OS with free firmware is definitely better than a free OS with proprietary firmware, but both of those are way better than a proprietary OS with proprietary firmware. By making the middle ground difficult, a lot of users have to choose between ideological purity and working hardware, and almost all of them will choose the latter in a big net loss for freedom. (E.g., "What do you mean this Linux thing doesn't support my network card unless I jump through all these hoops? I'll stick with Windows, where it just works out of the box.")

Re: Debian and firmware

#24

Do not agree. Let the countless others do that. Can anyone say with a straight face that there is anything wrong with Debian's vision or principles merely existing somewhere in the world? Ok, so they exist somewhere in the world, in Debian. And it predates you. Debian didn't come along and fuck up your life. There is no basis for any kind of "take it back" idea to "fix" Debian. If you don't subscribe to those princip…

No post body was provided.

Re: Debian and firmware

#25
post #22

OpenBSD is in a similar boat and continues to fight the good fight. The developers continue to reach out to the hardware manufacturers to get permission to include firmware in OpenBSD without an NDA. Sometimes they're successful, but, more often than not, they're not. I think if more of the open source community stood steadfast in this regard, more progress could be made here. The saddest part of all this, perhaps, i…

OpenBSD kinda does what's proposed here. The firmware packages aren't included in the distribution per se, but they're auto downloaded. It's pretty transparent for users.

Re: Debian and firmware

#26
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Principles matter!

They are the only reason I use Debian at all.

This could be seen as a benefit and a downside. It’s basically suggesting that you find other distros nicer to use but chose to use the less nice one due to principals. Most users will pick the nicer to use one.

Re: Debian and firmware

#28
There will always be calls to compromise on principles to maximize some metric or another. There are legions of business wannabes and people who think they know best, and they will sweetly offer up their opinions to tempt you towards what they think is best.

I hope Debian ignores them.

Re: Debian and firmware

#29
As a Windows/MacOS user who has moved full time to linux, I ended up on Debian Testing as my daily (going to try Fedora soon).

I still live back in the days when Fedora would give you a pop up to install non-free drivers ("additional software" or something like that).

I have been using Debian as my daily driver for almost 6 months now and Linux in general for years - I still have no idea how the video drivers work. I have no idea how to install them, which ones mean what, what's free, non-free, optimal, professional - I have no idea how any of it works and it's a source of frustration for me.

What is mesa? Why do people tell me not to install the video drivers from the Radeon website. When I download and install the drivers from the Radeon website there are lots of errors but it still seems to work - did I install them wrong? How to I update them?

When I install the `apt install firmware-amd-graphics` I get loads of warning, but it works so I ignore them.

What is going on and why isn't it as simple as Window's where I run an executable and a setup wizard does the rest?

Re: Debian and firmware

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are the only reason I use Debian at all.

This could be seen as a benefit and a downside. It’s basically suggesting that you find other distros nicer to use but chose to use the less nice one due to principals. Most users will pick the nicer to use one.

Debian is one of the top Linux distributions, so there are empirically a large number of people not being deterred.

And many of the other top Linux distributions are Debian derivatives which both participate in the community and provide the alternate experience.

Upholding its principles is the way Debian distinguishes itself. If you don't like it, use Mint or something.

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