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Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

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Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#11

Post by bandibus »

argomo wrote: post #8
bandibus wrote: post #2

This is sort of a sequel to a piece about the ancient Mediterranean megaflood that did really well on here last month - so, with my fingers crossed it's not too obnoxiously self-promotional of me to do it, I thought I'd give this one a punt as well. Also, thank you to those who left comments saying you didn't like that former piece's introduction. I agree with you! It was rambling and a bit self-indulgent and I shoul…

No offense, but I couldn't get into this piece due to the upfront clutter. Some readers may find it charming, but the privilege comment, the chart tweet, the subscribe button, the references to various novels... I just wasn't finding a good starting point to latch onto the content promised by the (excellent) headline. It felt like I had jumped into the middle of a podcast where the hosts are bantering and not making…

That's a fair comment, thank you. I originally wrote it that way because it was for longterm readers, with a bunch of callbacks to previous stuff, as you mention there. But for first-time visitors, it could be seen as clutter. I've cut some of that out, and I think you're right. Cheers!

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#12

Post by TSiege »

arbitrage wrote: post #7
greatpostman wrote: post #4

I think it’s pretty clear that sophisticated societies existed long before recorded history. They may not have had the tools of working with metal, but they definitely had sophisticated philosophical views and moral frameworks. I would bet this goes back even 30-50 thousand years. This idea that humanity sprang up out of nothing in Sumerian/Babylon is very contrived. There was an ice age ten thousand years ago, the c…

Your suppositions are interesting, but there's simply no proof of them.

Why is the default assumption that since we can't prove humans had sophisticated and complex lives comparable to our own, that we must assume they are simpletons. Their minds were no less capable of our own, why shouldn't we assume they had complex morals and social structures?

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#13

Post by vmception »

greatpostman wrote: post #4

I think it’s pretty clear that sophisticated societies existed long before recorded history. They may not have had the tools of working with metal, but they definitely had sophisticated philosophical views and moral frameworks. I would bet this goes back even 30-50 thousand years. This idea that humanity sprang up out of nothing in Sumerian/Babylon is very contrived. There was an ice age ten thousand years ago, the c…

The ice age itself would have had glaciers grinding down all evidence to nothing. Even our metal based structures would not withstand it very well over a few thousand years.

I agree that it doesn't make sense for there to be a single 6,000 year time period of human prosperity and collaboration, its much more likely that there have been multiple periods over a 200,000 time span. Perhaps some traits in humans continually set us back to a rudimentary lifestyle with thinned populations.

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#14

Post by LeanderK »

Naga wrote: post #9
arbitrage wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your suppositions are interesting, but there's simply no proof of them.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Unfortunately most of the (probable) evidence is under meters of water and mud.

But also untouched. Maybe we'll find a way to dig up evidence in the future...

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#15

Post by mc32 »

greatpostman wrote: post #4

I think it’s pretty clear that sophisticated societies existed long before recorded history. They may not have had the tools of working with metal, but they definitely had sophisticated philosophical views and moral frameworks. I would bet this goes back even 30-50 thousand years. This idea that humanity sprang up out of nothing in Sumerian/Babylon is very contrived. There was an ice age ten thousand years ago, the c…

We can only go by what we know and what we have evidence for. Sure, other small civs likely existed, but we don't have known evidence of them and their history, etc. At most we have tombs and archeological ruins to go by. So we go with the earliest civs for whom we have written evidence as well as lots of physical evidence for in addition to present-day influence. Otherwise things start to get very speculative.

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#16

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

arbitrage wrote: post #7
greatpostman wrote: post #4

I think it’s pretty clear that sophisticated societies existed long before recorded history. They may not have had the tools of working with metal, but they definitely had sophisticated philosophical views and moral frameworks. I would bet this goes back even 30-50 thousand years. This idea that humanity sprang up out of nothing in Sumerian/Babylon is very contrived. There was an ice age ten thousand years ago, the c…

Your suppositions are interesting, but there's simply no proof of them.

And in the absence of proof, the simplest assumption would be that humans then were just as human, and so had sophisticated societies etc.

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#17

Post by joshuaissac »

klyrs wrote: post #5
bandibus wrote: post #2

This is sort of a sequel to a piece about the ancient Mediterranean megaflood that did really well on here last month - so, with my fingers crossed it's not too obnoxiously self-promotional of me to do it, I thought I'd give this one a punt as well. Also, thank you to those who left comments saying you didn't like that former piece's introduction. I agree with you! It was rambling and a bit self-indulgent and I shoul…

Thanks, I think this is great! I've often wondered if the "great flood" myths and the legend of Atlantis have any factual basis carried on in oral history. The Zanclean flood stretches credulity beyond reason (as fun as it is to think about a story passed down from the first Hominins), but this event happened recently enough to ponder links to mythology... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessair

The Gunditjmara Australian story "Dreamtime" recounts the eruption of the now-dormant volcano Budj Bim about 37,000 years ago.[1][2] So it is possible for accounts of historical events to be transmitted orally over a very long period of time.

1. https://www.awe.gov.au/parks-heritage/heritage/places/nation...

2. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-26/study-dates-victorian...

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#18

Post by 7speter »

vmception wrote: post #13
greatpostman wrote: post #4

I think it’s pretty clear that sophisticated societies existed long before recorded history. They may not have had the tools of working with metal, but they definitely had sophisticated philosophical views and moral frameworks. I would bet this goes back even 30-50 thousand years. This idea that humanity sprang up out of nothing in Sumerian/Babylon is very contrived. There was an ice age ten thousand years ago, the c…

The ice age itself would have had glaciers grinding down all evidence to nothing. Even our metal based structures would not withstand it very well over a few thousand years. I agree that it doesn't make sense for there to be a single 6,000 year time period of human prosperity and collaboration, its much more likely that there have been multiple periods over a 200,000 time span. Perhaps some traits in humans continual…

A good chance that the glaciers might have also grounded whole societies as well

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#19

Post by vmception »

7speter wrote: post #18
vmception wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ice age itself would have had glaciers grinding down all evidence to nothing. Even our metal based structures would not withstand it very well over a few thousand years. I agree that it doesn't make sense for there to be a single 6,000 year time period of human prosperity and collaboration, its much more likely that there have been multiple periods over a 200,000 time span. Perhaps some traits in humans continual…

A good chance that the glaciers might have also grounded whole societies as well

Oh yes, any number of things could be less conducive to human life or a large population.

I’m just thinking war tactics and war machines keep it in check too.

Re: Europe's now-drowned 'lost world' and the 25m-high tsunami that finished it off

#20

Post by animal_spirits »

mc32 wrote: post #15
greatpostman wrote: post #4

I think it’s pretty clear that sophisticated societies existed long before recorded history. They may not have had the tools of working with metal, but they definitely had sophisticated philosophical views and moral frameworks. I would bet this goes back even 30-50 thousand years. This idea that humanity sprang up out of nothing in Sumerian/Babylon is very contrived. There was an ice age ten thousand years ago, the c…

We can only go by what we know and what we have evidence for. Sure, other small civs likely existed, but we don't have known evidence of them and their history, etc. At most we have tombs and archeological ruins to go by. So we go with the earliest civs for whom we have written evidence as well as lots of physical evidence for in addition to present-day influence. Otherwise things start to get very speculative.

Yeah we shouldn't say we "know" that advanced civilizations existed, but there's nothing wrong with hypothesizing that they did. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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