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Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

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Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#101

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

starwind wrote: post #98
tjader wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stallman and the FSF see closed source software as unethical. Imagine if someone asked you for help and said "I don't see how to free my slaves while making a living, paying my rent, paying for my children's education". Would you tell them "You shouldn't have slaves, it's unethical" or would you try to help them find a way to run their business with fewer slaves, but still some?

Did you just compare Stallman and the FSF to the Abolitionist movement, and paid software to slavery?

Would it help if they had rephrased it more generically? What is something that you find unethical? How does the example feel if you slot that in, instead of slavery?

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#102

Post by TiccyRobby »

causality0 wrote: post #57
dangom wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stallman has a vision that you and I should be typing our comments and playing our games from machines that are under our control, i.e., whereby we can inspect and modify all of the code that is running on them. That is not the case, and all Stallman is saying, is that this is bad for us. The Free Software Foundation was founded in 1985. From there since Free Software has only lost ground. I don't think Stallman woul…

all Stallman is saying, is that this is bad for us. That is just plain not true. If it were, that would be fantastic. Unfortunately that's only part of Stallman's message, and a good portion of the rest of it is either simply unworkable or batshit insane. To quote David Schlesinger after RMS got up on stage and talked about how "women who have not been introduced to emacs are emacs virgins and 'relieving them of thei…

To read more on that incident,

https://geekfeminism.fandom.com/wiki/EMACS_virgins_joke

There are references too.

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#103

Post by tjader »

starwind wrote: post #98
tjader wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stallman and the FSF see closed source software as unethical. Imagine if someone asked you for help and said "I don't see how to free my slaves while making a living, paying my rent, paying for my children's education". Would you tell them "You shouldn't have slaves, it's unethical" or would you try to help them find a way to run their business with fewer slaves, but still some?

Did you just compare Stallman and the FSF to the Abolitionist movement, and paid software to slavery?

No. I made an analogy to another behavior that I hope everyone will agree is unethical. The point is that if you accept Stallman's position that closed source software is unethical his response is not unexpected.

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#104

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

dangom wrote: post #12
cmeacham98 wrote: post #8

> “Well, first of all, I don't think there's anything bad about playing a game. Unless the game is non-free — then it's bad for you, if you play it. I get that Stallman's shtick is being as hardline as possible about free software, but it really feels like sometimes this hurts the free software movement. Imagine trying to bring in a normal, non-technical person who plays video games as one of their hobbies (describes…

Stallman has a vision that you and I should be typing our comments and playing our games from machines that are under our control, i.e., whereby we can inspect and modify all of the code that is running on them. That is not the case, and all Stallman is saying, is that this is bad for us. The Free Software Foundation was founded in 1985. From there since Free Software has only lost ground. I don't think Stallman woul…

> The Free Software Foundation was founded in 1985. From there since Free Software has only lost ground

I used computers in 1985. To suggest that the free software movement has only lost ground since then is completely absurd. Has it gone anywhere nearly as far as Stallman and others hoped it would? No. Has it gone much further than anyone who was around in 1985 to watch this being born thought it would go? Absolutely.

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#105

Post by malthuswaswrong »

jrm4 wrote: post #36

I really think far too many people are missing why Stallman and the FSF are so valuable. It's not that everyone should behave exactly like them; it's that they provide a useful extreme endpoint such that there can exist a reasonable "Overton Window" of Free/Open Source/ Whatever Software. I 100% support what they do and preach knowing FULL well I will likely never 100% do as they recommend. That's not actually a big…

That's a very diplomatic way to say he's crazy and people who put him on a pedestal are crazy for doing it; despite occasionally have a valid point.

Also I agree 100%.

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#106

Post by ekianjo »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #99
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really a counter to anything you've said, but just wanted to note that after two decades of fighting open source licensing for their widely popular VST audio plugin API, Steinberg finally did release under the GPLv3.

And what did Stallman or FSF have to do with that? The FSF won't even defend GPL violations in court. Others have had to organize efforts to do so.

The gpl v3 would not exist unless they were there.

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#107

Post by datadata »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #56

It won’t be major exaggeration to say that FSF and Stallman are irrelevant in 2022 and not much different from any other radical left group, struggling even to make sense for majority of people. The idea of completely free software where user could control the source code is an obsolete ideal. Not because it’s unviable economically, but because the size and complexity of modern software is far beyond the ability of i…

Do you think that the growing size and complexity of software might be part of the strategy of those profiting from the suppression of free software, rather than a necessity for increased software quality?

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#108

Post by lovich »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #100
lovich wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stallman seems like the kinda of guy who would tell you that you need to starve in the streets as long as you fit his version of ethics. All while he lives comfortably off the income of his own celebrity.

The hyperbole doesn't help. Stallman would not tell you that you need to starve in the streets. He is well away that most programmers get paid at least median income, and often much more, and they are normally people who can make choices in their lives, few of which will involve starving in the streets. You don't have to agree that the choices are attractive to acknowledge that they do not need to include starving in…

I don't think its hyperbole based on the public comments Stallman makes

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#109

Post by mattwilsonn888 »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #56

It won’t be major exaggeration to say that FSF and Stallman are irrelevant in 2022 and not much different from any other radical left group, struggling even to make sense for majority of people. The idea of completely free software where user could control the source code is an obsolete ideal. Not because it’s unviable economically, but because the size and complexity of modern software is far beyond the ability of i…

I don't think you understand. Most people consciously using free software do not read the source code, or modify it. The value of libre software is no less to them - it only takes one canary or developer to alert the community of issues in the source code, so making an argument based on the fact that most people don't read source code or even can is bunk - that's always been true and the community has reaped the benefits of libre software anyways.

Now if you want to talk about real bloat, like JavaScript libraries, then you are citing a malignant practice anyways. There is no world in which we should compromise libre software principles so we can mindlessly continue using Javascript bloat, which should be taken out back and shot even if you aren't concerned about libre philosophy.

Re: Richard Stallman – The state of the Free Software movement

#110

Post by KennyBlanken »

starwind wrote: post #95
jrm4 wrote: post #36

I really think far too many people are missing why Stallman and the FSF are so valuable. It's not that everyone should behave exactly like them; it's that they provide a useful extreme endpoint such that there can exist a reasonable "Overton Window" of Free/Open Source/ Whatever Software. I 100% support what they do and preach knowing FULL well I will likely never 100% do as they recommend. That's not actually a big…

> they provide a useful extreme endpoint such that there can exist a reasonable "Overton Window" of Free/Open Source/ Whatever Software Or, ya know, they could just stake out reasonable, nuanced positions that organizations could adopt or at least be a starting point for further developments

It's pretty hilarious seeing people suggesting that someone fundamentally unable to engage in empathy, perspective-taking, or second-order strategizing...is actually making some big-brain play to hold down the extremist end so that more moderate voices and exist.

Stallman is infamous for his inability to recognize viewpoints other than his own as having worth or validity. He is literally incapable of such a big-brain plan because there's no way he could see a moderate position as valid.

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