Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#201

Post by Simon_O_Rourke » Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 9:09 AM UTC

qbasic_forever wrote: post #85

Simon_O_Rourke wrote: post #74

Who's to say where you work after you leave one employer and go to another?

Everyone who works for a FAANG or big tech company. Non-competes are unfortunately standard everywhere and I don't know of anyone who isn't like a distinguished engineer/luminary in the field (i.e. someone who can set the terms of their hiring) that was able to successfully negotiate one away.

But for more regular Joe's, maybe senior engineers or whatever, the previous employer isn't too likely to incur any costs trying to find out who the next employer was? And I'm not too sure if there's a way for a private company to find out who somebody's employer is.

I left a really crappy employer about two months into a three month notice period as it was just pointless drudgery. I just kept a low profile on LinkedIn for a year or so afterwards. Didn't think they would have any way of finding out I joined another company straight away.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#202

Post by badpun » Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 1:40 PM UTC

locusofself wrote: post #184

danpalmer wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The brand/tech is making it really tempting Really? I’ve always felt that the Amazon brand is relatively low quality. I’ve also heard that tech-wise it’s less interesting than you might assume from the outside, and they just burn out engineers on problems rather than solving them well. I’m relatively uninformed so don’t make a decision based on this, but maybe something to consider.

What I really mean to say is that most startups are using AWS. While you don't have to work at AWS to get AWS skills obviously, having worked there would potentially signal that you really know AWS well and can bring that knowledge into the cooler/smaller company. The interview process is fairly difficult, not google/meta level, but not a walk in the park.

I don’t think that’s the case. When working on AWS, you’ll be assigned to a team doing some AWS product and so you’ll probably get to know it really well, but you’ll be more or less oblivious about the other 50+ products. Whereas, as a mere user of AWS, you’ll get more rounded knowledge.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#203

Post by optymizer » Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 6:46 PM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #146

optymizer wrote: post #117

Former Amazonian. I didn't renegotiate the non-competes and I wouldn't stress much about this. To my knowledge, this is one of those overly broad statements they put into the contract because it's advantageous to them and to reserve the right to sue the "VP of something" who took the knowledge and ran away. They won't act on it for your regular employees because it costs them money to do so and developers _routinely_…

I am surprised by the many post who make this statement. I mean this is significant financial risk based on the notion of "I guess they won't really enforce it".

It's low risk high reward. I agree with you in principle, but in practice, it depends on how strong your negotiation position is. Mine was rather weak so most things I asked for were denied.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#204

Post by optymizer » Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 7:07 PM UTC

unfocussed_mike wrote: post #131

optymizer wrote: post #117

Former Amazonian. I didn't renegotiate the non-competes and I wouldn't stress much about this. To my knowledge, this is one of those overly broad statements they put into the contract because it's advantageous to them and to reserve the right to sue the "VP of something" who took the knowledge and ran away. They won't act on it for your regular employees because it costs them money to do so and developers _routinely_…

> They won't act on it for your regular employees because it costs them money to do so and developers _routinely_ jump ship, though they want you to know that they technically have the power to because you signed that contract. This kind of thinking is exactly why these clauses get worse and worse and worse over time, I'm afraid. People should be prepared to argue the toss over every single line of an employment cont…

Sure, but it's prisoner's dilemma. In practice, the company almost always denies the request to remove the clause, and if I then refuse the offer, I'm worse off because few others are refusing offers over this clause. The only way we win here is if most people walk away, which they should, but they're not.

Anecdata: at a different FAANG, I requested a less important clause to be removed and the lawyers denied even that request. Lawyers will tell hiring managers to pass on a candidate in the name of protecting the company. They won't pass on everyone, but it's a long way to get there.

I think that having access to specialized legal council would have helped, but attorneys have a reputation of being expensive. I wish levels.fyi offered a legal service as well, in addition to their negotiation coaching service.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#205

Post by carimura » Mon, Apr 18, 2022, 8:19 PM UTC

rosndo wrote: post #129

carimura wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ouch. what awful advice. lying by omission is not only a terrible way to enter into a trusting relationship with a new employer but could also be committing fraud.

Not advertising the fact that you previously signed a non-binding unenforceable noncompete is not lying by omission.

I'm not a lawyer, but having been a hiring manager in tech for 20+ years, "materiality" (whether what you are omitting is material) is in the eye of the beholder (side note: great video game) aka the hiring manager and enforceability of contracts is up to lawyers. Neither of those people are you, in this case. So. I commend you for the fierce independence and protection of your career, but I stand by my statement that parent comment is still awful advice.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#206

Post by unfocussed_mike » Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 2:03 PM UTC

optymizer wrote: post #204

unfocussed_mike wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They won't act on it for your regular employees because it costs them money to do so and developers _routinely_ jump ship, though they want you to know that they technically have the power to because you signed that contract. This kind of thinking is exactly why these clauses get worse and worse and worse over time, I'm afraid. People should be prepared to argue the toss over every single line of an employment cont…

Sure, but it's prisoner's dilemma. In practice, the company almost always denies the request to remove the clause, and if I then refuse the offer, I'm worse off because few others are refusing offers over this clause. The only way we win here is if most people walk away, which they should, but they're not. Anecdata: at a different FAANG, I requested a less important clause to be removed and the lawyers denied even th…

This is a fair assessment.

There is another strategy than asking them to remove it, though. Ask them to qualify it. I've done this in the past (a long time ago, mind you, and in the UK, where employers are still somewhat bound by decency as well as law). I was asked to sign an extensive NDA for a short period of employment, and I agreed, on the condition that I could decline to join any meeting that wasn't strictly related to the project I was hired on, and that the same NDA bound them when discussing my personal projects.