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Twitter Should Open Up the Algorithm

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Re: Twitter Should Open Up the Algorithm

#91

Post by gfodor »

nopenopenopeno wrote: post #40
gfodor wrote: post #28

Recommender systems like Twitter are as much about data as they are about code. Without the dataset and the derived statistics and models that are used for ranking and recall, the code is not going to help much with transparency.

This is a ridiculous claim. While you won’t be able to make use of the code, it would still provide insight of the inputs in relative terms, and evidence methods that do not apply.

It would provide insight but if the goal is to increase transparency to the point of meaningfully improving trust in the centralized actor that is Twitter, I don’t see it moving that needle much. Given the right data you can kind of coax a lot of these algorithms into arbitrary outputs, so if you’re starting from a place of distrust then if you can’t replicate the outputs yourself you wont have evidence to alter priors significantly with just code imo.

Re: Twitter Should Open Up the Algorithm

#92

Post by jmull »

badwolf wrote: post #56
jmull wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An unmoderated chronological feed would simply be a running list of every tweet from every one . A screen full of this feed would just be tweets made at the moment the data for the screen refresh was fetched. Is that what you or anyone wants?

Yes. This is exactly what I want. It's not a global feed of every twitter in existence, it's a feed of accounts that you proactively choose to follow.

How/where does discovery happen?

Re: Twitter Should Open Up the Algorithm

#93

Post by nopenopenopeno »

gfodor wrote: post #91
nopenopenopeno wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a ridiculous claim. While you won’t be able to make use of the code, it would still provide insight of the inputs in relative terms, and evidence methods that do not apply.

It would provide insight but if the goal is to increase transparency to the point of meaningfully improving trust in the centralized actor that is Twitter, I don’t see it moving that needle much. Given the right data you can kind of coax a lot of these algorithms into arbitrary outputs, so if you’re starting from a place of distrust then if you can’t replicate the outputs yourself you wont have evidence to alter prio…

The point is to increase transparency, period. And you are the one arguing against that. Nobody is saying it’s enough, but it’s objectively better than nothing, and it would make it possible to ask more specific questions and make more specific arguments for the value of more transparency. Again, you are the one arguing against it but you have not provided a reason why.

Re: Twitter Should Open Up the Algorithm

#94

Post by spacexsucks »

Amazingly naive to develop an Operating system in the open. Amazingly naive to try and build an electric car company. Amazingly naive to think the internet will be worth anything. Amazongly naive to think that everyone will need a computer in their pocket.

Re: Twitter Should Open Up the Algorithm

#96

Post by paulsutter »

CharlesW wrote: post #39

"Open up the algorithm" is such a charmingly naive take on community moderation at scale that I can almost forgive the author for literally parroting Musk as the source of a lightweight take synthesized mostly from other people's thoughts in order to attract attention to his "Every" newsletter platform.

Do you consider Jack Dorsey naive on the subject?

"The choice of which algorithm to use (or not) should be open to everyone" - Jack Dorsey

https://twitter.com/jack/status/1507146276416098307

Re: Twitter Should Open Up the Algorithm

#97

Post by gfodor »

nopenopenopeno wrote: post #93
gfodor wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would provide insight but if the goal is to increase transparency to the point of meaningfully improving trust in the centralized actor that is Twitter, I don’t see it moving that needle much. Given the right data you can kind of coax a lot of these algorithms into arbitrary outputs, so if you’re starting from a place of distrust then if you can’t replicate the outputs yourself you wont have evidence to alter prio…

The point is to increase transparency, period. And you are the one arguing against that. Nobody is saying it’s enough, but it’s objectively better than nothing, and it would make it possible to ask more specific questions and make more specific arguments for the value of more transparency. Again, you are the one arguing against it but you have not provided a reason why.

I’m not arguing against it - I’m arguing that people who are focused on the idea of releasing the code are miscalibrated on the marginal impact of doing so given a lack of domain knowledge.

The net suggestion is to demand more, and start describing solutions, today, to get data visibility without compromising other things, to help offset the inevitable objections that will come once people are forced to demand it when they realize the code didn’t really solve the fundamental problem.

Re: Twitter Should Open Up the Algorithm

#98

Post by baggy_trough »

jeffbee wrote: post #64
baggy_trough wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I choose people to follow. If somebody is flooding my feed more than I like, then I unfollow them. Truly do not understand why anyone would want it to work differently other than marketers.

But it's not spam. If fifty people you follow retweet the same popular post, you do not want to see it fifty-one times. You want to see it once, and you want it ranked highly because everyone you follow thinks it's an important post. It's a form of crowdsourcing from a curated group of contributors. The chonological view cannot accommodate.

Again, I’ll control that by curating my own follow set. I don’t need some algorithm to crowdsource for me. That’s the last thing I want.

Re: Twitter Should Open Up the Algorithm

#99

Post by mritun »

Let’s start with HackerNews for a start.

What would you say about opening up every poster who’s been blocked and exactly how and for reason (or keywords) they’ve been blocked?

How about opening up what keywords trigger mail to go to spam vs inbox for email providers? It’s going to be very valuable for someone to know how spam filtering works if their delivery rate doubles!

Re: Twitter Should Open Up the Algorithm

#100

Post by baggy_trough »

jmull wrote: post #92
badwolf wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. This is exactly what I want. It's not a global feed of every twitter in existence, it's a feed of accounts that you proactively choose to follow.

How/where does discovery happen?

As a pull, not a push. Meaning, in the very beginning, from off the chronological feed. Later, from following conversations of follows to new interesting accounts.
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