Why The 99% Should Protest Against Y Combinator • Hacker News Board

Re: Why The 99% Should Protest Against Y Combinator

#51

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 11:06 PM UTC

dotBen wrote: post #26

anigbrowl wrote: post #6

'Fuck Monsanto, and by association, fuck Cloudant' is not a constructive opening to a conversation. If that poster had started by saying 'This announcement makes me not want to do business with Cloudant. Here's why...' then I'd largely agree with you. You are right that Monsanto is a politically radioactive company, so putting out a cheery press release about becoming a core technology supplier displays a misundersta…

I didn't write the original comment being referred to but I reserve the right to drop the F bomb where appropriate. This is real life, we're adults, and it is possible to communicate and deliver an astute/sophisticated/poignant perspective using expletives (just as much as it isn't). If you're offended by someone writing 'fuck' then you need to grow some testicular fortitude. swearing is not equal to the 'aggressive…

I'm not offended by the use of the word 'fuck.' I'm offended by the idea that throwing a tantrum is a reasonable or credible way to open a conversation. It's one thing to get passionate if the other party is being pointlessly confrontational or dismissive of genuine concerns. It might even be appropriate. It's quite another for someone to lead off with a shouty denunciation as if that person's opinion is the only one that matters and has no need of explanation.

Step back from the swearing and look at the context in which it cropped up. When an unfamiliar someone's entry to a conversation consists of blowing his/her top, it's usually because they're drunk or crazy. As William Burroughs used to say, 'I am not paid to listen to this drivel.'

Re: Why The 99% Should Protest Against Y Combinator

#52

Post by johnny22 » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 11:07 PM UTC

femto wrote: post #19

Idea for a startup: a ratings service to track and rate the ethics/values of companies. This company would be to ethics as S&P is to finance. It would probably have more clout though, if it has a way of distributing its product to the person in the street. The person in the street probably cares more about ethical performance than finance performance when they are making daily buying decisions.

didn't somebody do this with products from amazon's catalog once? I forgot what the name was though. Anybody else recall it?

Re: Why The 99% Should Protest Against Y Combinator

#53

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 11:08 PM UTC

zzzeek wrote: post #16

nostrademons wrote: post #7

Do you buy any food at all that is not grown by local organic farmers? If you do, chances are you have a much stronger business relationship with Monsanto than Paul Graham does. After all, you are directly giving money to a supermarket, which is giving it to a big agribusiness, which either is Monsanto or is a customer of Monsanto. All these evil things that Monsanto does? They're done with your money. Contrast that…

this "voting with your dollars" thing is a bunch of bullshit. It's virtually impossible to live in modern society, engaging in commerce with any number of vendors that are invariably linked to multinational companies which are themselves highly interlinked, without money going to many companies we'd prefer it didn't, any more than it's feasible to live in a town governed by a government you vehemently disagree with,…

this "voting with your dollars" thing is a bunch of bullshit.

Tell that to RIM or Netflix.

Re: Why The 99% Should Protest Against Y Combinator

#54

Post by johngalt » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 11:10 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #5

I agree with pg on this one, and I find Nick O'Neill's arguments to be as ludicrous as O'Neill seems to find pg's. This must be a fundamental, deeply ingrained, clear-cut difference in the way people think.

It is a fundamental difference. Some people will sit in a wooden house and decry the lumber industry for deforestation. Others will try to figure out how to make bricks cheaper.

Re: Why The 99% Should Protest Against Y Combinator

#55

Post by rictic » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 11:11 PM UTC

cb18 wrote: post #25

nostrademons wrote: post #7

Do you buy any food at all that is not grown by local organic farmers? If you do, chances are you have a much stronger business relationship with Monsanto than Paul Graham does. After all, you are directly giving money to a supermarket, which is giving it to a big agribusiness, which either is Monsanto or is a customer of Monsanto. All these evil things that Monsanto does? They're done with your money. Contrast that…

efficient Not efficient so much, as it externalizes costs away from the customer purchasing transaction and onto other actors in the system, like farmers and the environment. Monsanto is not the only beneficiary of their evil ways, though: because of their evilness, millions of Americans spend less on food than they otherwise would. Have you thought this through? Are you saying exploitation of some to the 'benefit' o…

I don't think you're giving the parent poster a very charitable reading.

Evil can be quite efficient for the entity being evil and inefficient for the world at large. It's the epitome of selfishness, ergo: evil.

Cheaper food is a benefit. That doesn't imply that this gain is worth the consequences.

Re: Why The 99% Should Protest Against Y Combinator

#56

Post by rictic » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 11:13 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #53

zzzeek wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this "voting with your dollars" thing is a bunch of bullshit. It's virtually impossible to live in modern society, engaging in commerce with any number of vendors that are invariably linked to multinational companies which are themselves highly interlinked, without money going to many companies we'd prefer it didn't, any more than it's feasible to live in a town governed by a government you vehemently disagree with,…

this "voting with your dollars" thing is a bunch of bullshit. Tell that to RIM or Netflix.

Isn't that voting based on perceived quality of product (which I don't believe is in dispute) rather than an ethical objection of some kind?

Re: Why The 99% Should Protest Against Y Combinator

#57

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 11:14 PM UTC

cb18 wrote: post #25

nostrademons wrote: post #7

Do you buy any food at all that is not grown by local organic farmers? If you do, chances are you have a much stronger business relationship with Monsanto than Paul Graham does. After all, you are directly giving money to a supermarket, which is giving it to a big agribusiness, which either is Monsanto or is a customer of Monsanto. All these evil things that Monsanto does? They're done with your money. Contrast that…

efficient Not efficient so much, as it externalizes costs away from the customer purchasing transaction and onto other actors in the system, like farmers and the environment. Monsanto is not the only beneficiary of their evil ways, though: because of their evilness, millions of Americans spend less on food than they otherwise would. Have you thought this through? Are you saying exploitation of some to the 'benefit' o…

Have you thought this through? Are you saying exploitation of some to the 'benefit' of others is okay?

That's the philosophy of utilitarianism in a nutshell. This is not a debate that can, or will, be resolved on HN. You might want to read up on 'Kaldor-Hicks efficiency' and 'Pareto optimality' which explores this concept in greater detail. 'Efficiency' here means net economic utility, as opposed to Company X just saving a few $.

Re: Why The 99% Should Protest Against Y Combinator

#58

Post by staunch » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 11:16 PM UTC

lwat wrote: post #33

staunch wrote: post #20

Why would we lynch Cloudant, but Apple and other companies (that make much more money from Monsanto) get a free pass? Of course a startup is excited to get a big client, as they should be. If Apple was a small company and signed a deal with Monsanto they'd probably make a big deal about it too. For a startup a big client can be the difference between success and failure in the early days. Apple has no such excuse, th…

Apple don't put out press releases saying 'We're proud to be working with Monsanto'

They would if they were an early stage startup and just got their first big order.

Re: Why The 99% Should Protest Against Y Combinator

#59

Post by waratuman » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 11:20 PM UTC

This article itself is outrageous. First, I highly doubt that you can claim 99%. Second, what right do you have to declare what is ethical and what is not ethical? Has Monsanto done any harm to you in any way or intervened in your personal affairs? You might as well become a religious zealot.

Re: Why The 99% Should Protest Against Y Combinator

#60

Post by msredmond » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 11:22 PM UTC

Unless I'm mistaken, the root of this entire thing is the PRESS RELEASE -- very basic rule is that you don't promote something regarding your company if it's going to be received negatively by a significant # of people. So this was a really bad PR decision compounded by another PR error in the company commenting on the effect of original bad decision. They should just accept that there was a mistake made (by either them or their PR company), not try to defend it -- take your lumps, learn from it and move on.