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Tax the Land

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221–230 of 613 posts

Re: Tax the Land

#221
post #9

Not really stated in the article are three caveats: 1) Zoning laws have to change as well to actually allow development of the land being taxed toward more productive ends. 2) The land tax amount needs to be high enough that the pain of the tax effectively forces owners to improve what's on the land. A homeowner sitting on a million dollar piece of property in California taxed at ~1% is still unlikely to build an apa…

>3) It could be personal bias, but a lot of LVT arguments seem to implicitly assume that more rental units is a good thing

The house you 'own', in fact is nothing more than tenancy. Just a different kind of tenancy. Stop paying property taxes and find out you still have a landlord.

I think far bigger issue is how to apply LVT. a cookie-cutter approach is guaranteed to fail. an overly complex system is just another byzantine labyrinth of a tax code that'll be gamed.

Re: Tax the Land

#222

Local governments, which have been granted near unchecked authority by state governments, are entirely captured by homeowners. I'm not fully clear on this statement. Is it putting forth that local governments shouldn't be controlled by the people who are local, or is it saying that homeowners hold more power than renters? If the former, that's just silly. If the latter, renters get the same one vote per person as eve…

> if they don't care enough to vote that's their problem.

The life of a renter is completely different from that of a homeowner. Most renters are of a lower class, living paycheck to paycheck. All they think about is staying afloat, not getting involved in local politics. You need a surplus of time and energy, and roots, to get involved.

Comments like this ignore the conditions under which people live and how these conditions modify their behavior.

Re: Tax the Land

#223
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The masses are asses. We shouldn’t just do things because the most people want it. Thats called tyranny by the majority.

> We shouldn’t just do things because the most people want it. I actually agree. "Should" is such a terrible word that I don't think we should use it at all. But we do do the things that most people want, because that is by construction the primary desire on a societal scale. You are part of a bigger machine, whether you like it or not. > Thats called tyranny by the majority. Really funny that American neo-con reacti…

>>> Thats called tyranny by the majority.

>Really funny that American neo-con reactionaries have introduced such a concept. Anywhere else, it's just called "democracy".

Your bias is showing... "Neo-con reactionaries" didn't introduce the concept. John Quincy Adams first did in 1788. It was popularized by John Stuart Mill in 1859.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

Re: Tax the Land

#224
post #222

Local governments, which have been granted near unchecked authority by state governments, are entirely captured by homeowners. I'm not fully clear on this statement. Is it putting forth that local governments shouldn't be controlled by the people who are local, or is it saying that homeowners hold more power than renters? If the former, that's just silly. If the latter, renters get the same one vote per person as eve…

> if they don't care enough to vote that's their problem. The life of a renter is completely different from that of a homeowner. Most renters are of a lower class, living paycheck to paycheck. All they think about is staying afloat, not getting involved in local politics. You need a surplus of time and energy, and roots, to get involved. Comments like this ignore the conditions under which people live and how these c…

I don't believe this to be true. Maybe if your goal is to live where you can't afford.

Re: Tax the Land

#225
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income tax definitely disincentives work. Source: my life. In the current economic situation I could easily take on another 40/hour a week job. If I do that I only get to keep just over half of the additional pay my extra job would supply. It's not worth my time to work for half my 'hourly rate'. So now there's an extra job vacancy.

Which is normally a good thing. Because we need more people employed as opposed to one person with 2x income

>>>Because we need more people employed as opposed to one person with 2x income

To me that just suggests we have a massive over-supply of labor. Whether labor is employed or not, it comes with a non-zero resource maintenance cost, which exacerbates things like climate risk, etc. Setting tax policies in such a way to maximize the number of meatbags assembling widgets strikes me as directing us towards an erroneous local maximum. Feeding fewer mouths, but doubling the resource allocations to each would be preferred.

Re: Tax the Land

#226
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Imagine I'm a landlord, and I have a vacant lot I'm renting to a tenant who's got a mobile home parked there. What's going to happen if a Land Value Tax is imposed on me? Well, I'm already charging as much as the market will bear. If I charge any more, my tenant will move out. That's rich. As someone who is a landlord, I'm already charging what two owners ago was charging when they died and the city won't let raise…

LVT isn't a market distortion. Private landowners getting rich by not doing anything is a market distortion. If you buy a building (say that isn't rent controlled) and over 10 years the market rate for rents in the area doubles, you didn't make that happen basically at all but get to reap the rewards. That doesn't make any sense -- the community should get that money as the community created it! On the other hand if…

Getting rich by not doing anything? Do you think bring a landlord is easy? Aren’t property owners providing housing to tenants which the tenants aren’t responsible for? Providing housing so tenants don’t have to come up with down payments or commit to living in a place long term? Taking on risk by being legally responsible for housing the tenant(s)? Making improvements and maintaining the property? Forgoing other investments they could be making?

Re: Tax the Land

#227
post #13

"The big question land value taxes help answer is: How can a government raise funds without distorting choices and possibly leaving people worse off? If you tax income, it provides a disincentive to work. If you tax property, it provides a disincentive to improve the physical buildings on top of the land." Of course it will distort choices and leave some people worse off. If the author can't see that, then they have…

> We already see standard property tax forcing the elderly out of their homes in many areas. It's reasonable to offer options to low-income retirees, for example allowing them to defer property tax payments until death. Texas does this, it works alright. Note that a single family dewlling on .75 acres likely costs the government a lot of money to provide services (plumbing, sewer, electric etc) and is likely already…

>Note that a single family dewlling on .75 acres likely costs the government a lot of money to provide services (plumbing, sewer, electric etc) and is likely already a net debtor to the city/county. This style of development is why American (and Canadian) cities are going broke.

Maybe in a dying city nobody wants to live in anyway.

Most costs aren't spending the entire budget on plumbing/sewer/electric. All of those are often billed separately, with surcharges for infra development. RE developers are on the hook for those in new developments.

Largest costs usually are: education, police, fire, roads. Except roads, these are orthogonal to density.

So in short, your argument: people are net debtors because we have roads. Plainly false.

Re: Tax the Land

#228
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if they don't care enough to vote that's their problem. The life of a renter is completely different from that of a homeowner. Most renters are of a lower class, living paycheck to paycheck. All they think about is staying afloat, not getting involved in local politics. You need a surplus of time and energy, and roots, to get involved. Comments like this ignore the conditions under which people live and how these c…

I don't believe this to be true. Maybe if your goal is to live where you can't afford.

As an immigrant that can't ever vote, has restrictions on buying property, and belonged to a 40% immigration population in SF, i beg to differ.

Re: Tax the Land

#229
post #222

Local governments, which have been granted near unchecked authority by state governments, are entirely captured by homeowners. I'm not fully clear on this statement. Is it putting forth that local governments shouldn't be controlled by the people who are local, or is it saying that homeowners hold more power than renters? If the former, that's just silly. If the latter, renters get the same one vote per person as eve…

> if they don't care enough to vote that's their problem. The life of a renter is completely different from that of a homeowner. Most renters are of a lower class, living paycheck to paycheck. All they think about is staying afloat, not getting involved in local politics. You need a surplus of time and energy, and roots, to get involved. Comments like this ignore the conditions under which people live and how these c…

Many places make voting difficult. I recognize this, and agree that it is terrible. Voting should be as easy and widespread as possible. There comes a point on the effort scale, however, below which not voting means you just don't give a damn. Voting in my city involves thirty seconds on a website to request a ballot and then dropping your envelope in the mail. If you don't care that much, or have managed to screw your life up to the point where that is just too much work, then I don't really care to have your input on how my city is run.

Re: Tax the Land

#230

Local governments, which have been granted near unchecked authority by state governments, are entirely captured by homeowners. I'm not fully clear on this statement. Is it putting forth that local governments shouldn't be controlled by the people who are local, or is it saying that homeowners hold more power than renters? If the former, that's just silly. If the latter, renters get the same one vote per person as eve…

> renters get the same one vote per person as everybody else

It's not just directly voting for a city councilor, planning board member, etc. that counts. Showing up to public meetings to show support or disagreement with something can do much to pressure those elected officials. But renters are going to have a much more difficult time showing solidarity for pro-development action, not only because of the difference in socioeconomic status (e.g. living paycheck to paycheck vs. a homeowner who has a stable, white-collar job).

1. Homeowners can shoot down a proposed development by demonstrating a strong response against threats on just their street or block. As long as homeowners defend their turf locally, and it can be counted on them to do so across town, they win. Renters, on the other hand, have an asymmetrically difficult battle: pro-development individuals need to show up to all the proposed-development meetings, not just one for a particular street or block, if they want to expand housing.

2. Homeowners are probably much more strongly driven to show up because the focus is on what they lose. Character of neighborhood, traffic, safety, noise, etc. and the threat against the status quo seems more likely to trigger that visceral defense mechanism. Renters probably focus on what they gain: affordable housing, access to new communities, etc. My intuition is that the perception of losing something is a greater call to action than the possibility of gaining something.

3. Homeowners are well-defined and known individuals. They already exist, and their turf is already developed. Renters, on the other hand, are an abstract group of people who may or may not even move in, should something be built. I currently rent an apartment - but will I show up to a neighboring town's planning board meeting to voice my support for some proposed apartment complex that's still in the early stages, could flop at any point, and even if it succeeds I may not even move there? The renters of a future complex may not even know who they are yet, if they aren't adamant on moving in there should a place be built.

4. There's strong stigma against renters, to the point of being demeaning and tribal. A local council near me voiced their opposition to building more affordable developments, and the chairman said he was concerned about "derelicts" (exact word) moving in to the neighborhood and said if they built more affordable units, you'd see a rise in street drug vendors, threatening the local children. How can renters and low-income earners combat such ridiculous accusations when local leaders cast them as criminals, just because they can't afford to buy a median $400,000 house?

Your comment ignores so much of the asymmetric power dynamic between owners and renters.

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