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The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

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Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#41

Post by version_five »

watwut wrote: post #30
partido3619463 wrote: post #2

Given the other stories posted on this site (universally claiming lockdowns were pointless and no medical reason for them), makes me question whether these stories are representative.

Quoted post unavailable.

I just want to point out that I have the exact opposite perception, that the majority viewpoint on HN is very pro-authoritarian measures (though I think whether they work or not is immaterial, its a silly side discussion to avoid talking about whether a government should be able to impose them or not)

Anyway, I think the way you and I perceive HN is shaped by our initial bias. Knowing the "reality" is a lot tougher

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#42

Post by ceejayoz »

Cookingboy wrote: post #35
watwut wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A simple visit to the Wikipedia article on Covid timeline showed that to be false. It does not?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_COVID-19_pande... Can you point me toward where they tried to hide the outbreak?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_misinformation_by_Chi...

> In a March 2020 interview, Ai Fen, the director of Wuhan Central Hospital's emergency department, stated in an interview that “she was told by superiors ... that Wuhan's health commission had issued a directive that medical workers were not to disclose anything about the virus, or the disease it caused, to avoid sparking a panic.

> In the early stages of the outbreak, the Chinese National Health Commission stated it had no "clear evidence" of human-to-human transmissions. However, at this time the high prevalence of human-to-human transmission was evident to doctors and other health workers, but they were forbidden to express their concerns in public.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#43

Post by whimsicalism »

dougmwne wrote: post #21
jaqalopes wrote: post #8

I lived in Shanghai for 5 years and have many friends and business connects there. I would never, ever want to be seen as carrying water for the CCP--the day they abolished term limits for Xi was the day I started planning my exit. I've been following this situation for almost a month now and in one sense it's every bit as bad as it looks. An inadequate and inhumane policy being enforced by an out of touch, or perhap…

Thank you for your take on this. My reaction is that you are of course right that this is not affecting everyone equally. Certainly the CCP is not starving out all 26 million people in Shanghai. But I think this is the exact fear most of us have of authoritarian governments, that minority voices get silenced or worse and that justice is not equally distributed.

No post body was provided.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#44

Post by gpm »

memish wrote: post #15

Why are they still pursuing Zero Covid? I know the article includes some speculation on this, but what's the best explanation?

Because it's been working, both from an economics and health perspective, and the locals seem to be in support of it, except for in Shanghai

Here's a well known person in Shenzhen discussing it. Obviously be aware that any source in China can't speak too directly against the government, especially the central government. However I feel rather confident that this thread is a pretty good representation of her actual opinion having read a lot of her tweets on the topic.

https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/151481834568977614...

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#45

Post by kharak »

dqpb wrote: post #19
jaqalopes wrote: post #8

I lived in Shanghai for 5 years and have many friends and business connects there. I would never, ever want to be seen as carrying water for the CCP--the day they abolished term limits for Xi was the day I started planning my exit. I've been following this situation for almost a month now and in one sense it's every bit as bad as it looks. An inadequate and inhumane policy being enforced by an out of touch, or perhap…

> An inadequate and inhumane policy being enforced by an out of touch, or perhaps even uncaring, government The inevitable result of centralized control.

That is certainly an important factor. I think it goes even deeper.

China doesn't recognize human rights as we know them. The collective, represented by state interests (CCP), is above all. Hence any individual right can be sacrificed for the greater good. Aka state interests.

And that's why situations like this shutdown in Shanghai can unfold. It's a deeply philosophical problem that China hasn't resolved, despite ample opportunity to learn the lesson.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#46

Post by whimsicalism »

gyf304 wrote: post #16

We must protect human lives at all costs, even at the cost of human lives. Jokes aside, what we really want to know is that - what are the human lives lost lockdown v.s. no lockdown, maybe also factor in the possible economic downturns. The government did a not-so-good job convincing people that doing a lockdown is indeed better than the alternative - "We ran the numbers, it seems like doing a lockdown at this stage…

I mean, any crunching of the numbers shows that China has effectively averted 3 million dead of their own population due to covid - assuming equal quality of care with the US.

I generally attribute that to the lockdowns, do people have another explanation?

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#47

Post by LorenPechtel »

ceejayoz wrote: post #18
Cookingboy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>China tried to actively cover up the infection in Wuhan. News got out, doctors posted on social media A simple visit to the Wikipedia article on Covid timeline showed that to be false. >video on Reddit showed people dying in the streets. That was literally just a drunk guy falling on street. Covid doesn't just make people drop dead while walking on the street lol. America suffered a million Covid deaths and we have…

> A simple visit to the Wikipedia article on Covid timeline showed that to be false. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Wenliang "Rumors of a deadly SARS outbreak subsequently spread on Chinese social media platforms; Wuhan police summoned and admonished him on 3 January for "making false comments on the Internet about unconfirmed SARS outbreak."" > That was literally just a drunk guy falling on street. Covid doesn't j…

I wouldn't even call what happened with Li Wenliang a coverup. When someone makes a tremendous claim the usual response is to figure they're wrong--it's just in China that also resulted in an official visit telling him to quit scaremongering.

It didn't take long for Beijing to realize he was right, admit the disease was real and reverse the wrist-slap the guy originally got.

I do agree that Covid can cause people to collapse--it's not out of the blue but they don't realize how ill they are.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#49

Post by whimsicalism »

diebeforei485 wrote: post #31
memish wrote: post #15

Why are they still pursuing Zero Covid? I know the article includes some speculation on this, but what's the best explanation?

I mean, the US has had a million covid deaths. China presumably doesn't want 3 million deaths?

This is the obvious response and I am confused every time I see an article criticizing these lockdowns. They all seem to be written from the American herd immunity point of view, neglecting that we paved the way to herd immunity with the bodies of a million of our own citizens.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#50

Post by rrsmtz »

whimsicalism wrote: post #43
dougmwne wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your take on this. My reaction is that you are of course right that this is not affecting everyone equally. Certainly the CCP is not starving out all 26 million people in Shanghai. But I think this is the exact fear most of us have of authoritarian governments, that minority voices get silenced or worse and that justice is not equally distributed.

Quoted post unavailable.

"We" didn't kill anybody, they died of a highly transmissible and novel disease for which there was no cure and no vaccine for over a year. There was no possible way that death could have been completely averted. Yes, there were policy choices that could have been made differently, that would have potentially slowed the spread. We implemented many, decided not to implement others, and had a difficult time enforcing the policies we did enact. But using the language of murder when talking this, and arguing using an implied base rate of zero, is hardly good faith.
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