Monsanto chooses Cloudant to power its genome analytics • Hacker News Board

Re: Monsanto chooses Cloudant to power its genome analytics

#131

Post by kreek » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 8:43 PM UTC

irrumator wrote: post #88

kongqiu wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an unfortunate sign for everyone that you (and/or Cloudant) wouldn't anticipate this reaction from going into business with Monsanto. As to the "content-free" claim, sometimes a rant is an appropriate reaction. If some YC company partnered with Al Qaida, would we really need to spell out all the heinous things AQ has done before writing, "F- that!"?!? EDIT: And to your "If the rule is, if x sells something to Mo…

Yes, because Hacker News is for civilized, rational discussion. Not '+1 !'s, not analogies to the Nazi regime, not a litany of profanity to a hard-working young startup, and not more hivemind think from Reddit. The kind of hivemind that downvotes any contrary opinion and upvotes the tasteless, content-free posts you see at the top. We can discourse in more substantial words than "F- that!". Multiple '?!?' becoming mo…

I was about to take your dismissal of my '+1' seriously until I noticed the vast majority your comments on HN are all contrarian and basically content free. Except of course when you're blasting others as 'hivemind'ed, or to complain about one of the seven words you can't say on HN. For the record I'm an Orange County Republican so I came to my opposition of Monsanto by my own volition.

Re: Monsanto chooses Cloudant to power its genome analytics

#132

Post by davidw » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 8:44 PM UTC

pg wrote: post #70

oldstrangers wrote: post #2

Fuck Monsanto, and by association, fuck Cloudant. "We’ve been working with them for a few weeks now and we couldn’t be more thrilled with the partnership." Thrilled? I guess money is thrilling. "The data & reporting interfaces will be used across Monsanto and should be instrumental in the making of key business decisions." Key business decisions like which small farmer to sue into oblivion? Or what third world nation…

It's an unfortunate sign for HN when the top comment on a thread is such a content-free rant. If the rule is, if x sells something to Monsanto, fuck x, then what you're saying is fuck the entire corporate world, because I'm sure Monsanto buys Apple computers and Chevrolets and Clorox too. It's sort of ridiculous to hold Cloudant to a standard that essentially zero other companies meet. There are frequently inane comm…

That's the sort of debate you get when you leave all those juicy articles about this that and the other political thing out for the flies to land on.

Re: Monsanto chooses Cloudant to power its genome analytics

#133

Post by irrumator » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 8:45 PM UTC

nirvana wrote: post #127

irrumator wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, I don't think I've ever seen so many 'fucks' and similar words used on an HN thread before. For some reason all these new posters are tying every company which they have a grudge against with Monsanto, and by association, with Cloudant. Amusing to read all the pent up angered comments, with any dissenting ones heavily downvoted. Did /r/politics arrive to stay? What happened here? Cloudant is providing an amaz…

I've been very curious about the persistence of anti-capitalists attitudes on Hacker News. For me, one of the things that changed me from a liberal into a libertarian was starting businesses. Getting out there, trying to grow, dealing with government, and recognizing that I needed to learn finance, etc, caused me to get experience with how the business world works, and to also learn economics, and that was pretty muc…

I think this is a more recent development actually, that started in the last year particularly. Hacker News had a much more business and startup friendly environment, but the anti-capitalist attitude is a sentiment that was found mostly at the bottom, downvoted for their mostly incoherent rants. It's unfortunate that their numbers have gained.

I think one of the biggest signs to always look for is how many comments a story has. You'll find the older, better commenters tend to be more conservative with their comments and only joining the discussion when they have something worthwhile to contribute.

Hacker News has grown a lot in the last year, and obviously many of the new users are people who don't actually run their own businesses. They view making money as somehow abhorrent. The same kind of mindset you see in these new occupy wall street protests.

But lest I take us off on a too political tangent, I'll end it here. Politics does not belong on Hacker News.

Re: Monsanto chooses Cloudant to power its genome analytics

#134

Post by klbarry » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 8:47 PM UTC

vijayr wrote: post #92

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #12

Heh. I didn't know what to expect when I came here, but frankly I was a bit surprised to see the ethical implications of this deal weighed so heavily here. Not that I view the HN community as cut throat necessarily, but certainly often business oriented. Granted this was only posted an hour ago, but I will try to less judgementally provoke a discussion regarding ethics and startups... Is it wrong to even associate wi…

It is a huge negative publicity, to be associated with a company like Monsanto. Not sure if that would affect Cloudant's future business prospects though. We all know of the sweatshops run by companies like Walmart and Nike, lots of people even complain loudly, but those companies seem to be doing very well, year after year. On the other hand, given the size of Monsanto, there is no doubt that Cloudant could effectiv…

Nike hasn't been an ethically questioned company since 2000. In fact, they're pretty universally acclaimed as one of the most ethical companies in the world now (google Nike Most Ethical). Most of the Monsanto data in this thread is decades old, as well.

Re: Monsanto chooses Cloudant to power its genome analytics

#135

Post by kongqiu » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 8:56 PM UTC

nirvana wrote: post #130

pg wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an unfortunate sign for HN when the top comment on a thread is such a content-free rant. If the rule is, if x sells something to Monsanto, fuck x, then what you're saying is fuck the entire corporate world, because I'm sure Monsanto buys Apple computers and Chevrolets and Clorox too. It's sort of ridiculous to hold Cloudant to a standard that essentially zero other companies meet. There are frequently inane comm…

I'm not alarmed because there seems to be two very distinct crowds of people who hang out on hacker news. "Startup people", like yourself, who are across the political spectrum, with probably a disproportionate number of libertarians (as compared to the broader population) and the /r/politics crowd which are very anti-capitalist, anti-innovation, pro-taxes, etc. Some threads attract one crowd and the comments go one…

Monsanto is an extreme case, and therefore inspires a lot of passion. I'd say the vast majority of people on HN are pro-capitalism and pro-innovation, but have disparate views on business ethics and the efficacy of various regulations. In the eyes of many, Monsanto crosses the line between "good honest competition" and "dangerous and malevolent would-be monopolist."

Also: Way to paint people you disagree with on this issue as "very anti-capitalist, anti-innovation, pro-taxes..."

Re: Monsanto chooses Cloudant to power its genome analytics

#136

Post by Unseelie » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 9:01 PM UTC

dagw wrote: post #125

davidandgoliath wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Missing the RIAA: Same scenario, different product. Though the key difference is Monsanto's evils are !@#$ing with our food supply / chain / system that's happily evolved over thousands of years as they sue farmers into oblivion. The RIAA is merely making 'big music' less important to the majority of us & shooting themselves in the foot in the process while suing their potential clientbase. Both very much similar, an…

RIAA isn't even in the same universe. You can certainly debate how many innocent lives Monsanto's,BP,Halliburton and Xe Services have on their concision, but I think it's safe to say that everybody agrees it's greater than zero. I doubt even the most rabid RIAA hater would try to argue that the RIAA had actual blood on their hands. RIAA fucks some bands out of money and use lawsuits to shake down people on dubious le…

Devil's advocate for a moment, but every way that I'm aware of Monsanto letting people die is essentially an economical one: They ruin people's ability to buy or labor for food...which makes the comparison to the RIAA just one of a different scale. If the RIAA were even better at taking money from people, people would starve.

Of course, it makes no sense for the RIAA to starve its working musicians, but the ones who have stopped selling above margin?

Re: Monsanto chooses Cloudant to power its genome analytics

#137

Post by seven_stones » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 9:07 PM UTC

pg wrote: post #70

oldstrangers wrote: post #2

Fuck Monsanto, and by association, fuck Cloudant. "We’ve been working with them for a few weeks now and we couldn’t be more thrilled with the partnership." Thrilled? I guess money is thrilling. "The data & reporting interfaces will be used across Monsanto and should be instrumental in the making of key business decisions." Key business decisions like which small farmer to sue into oblivion? Or what third world nation…

It's an unfortunate sign for HN when the top comment on a thread is such a content-free rant. If the rule is, if x sells something to Monsanto, fuck x, then what you're saying is fuck the entire corporate world, because I'm sure Monsanto buys Apple computers and Chevrolets and Clorox too. It's sort of ridiculous to hold Cloudant to a standard that essentially zero other companies meet. There are frequently inane comm…

> It's an unfortunate sign for HN when the top comment on a thread is such a content-free rant.

To the contrary, the tenor of the majority of comments makes it clear that the context is well-understood already, and this is encouraging.

Users evidencing a strong moral compass is a reason to rejoice, not despair.

If you want some context, try Wikipedia.

Monsanto is responsible for more than 50 United States Environmental Protection Agency Superfund sites, attempts to clean up Monsanto Chemical's formerly uncontrolled hazardous waste sites.[27]

The Center for Food Safety[108] listed 112 lawsuits by Monsanto against farmers for claims of seed patent violations.[27] The Center for Food Safety's analyst stated that many innocent farmers settle with Monsanto because they cannot afford a time consuming lawsuit. Monsanto is frequently described by farmers as "Gestapo" and "Mafia" both because of these lawsuits and because of the questionable means they use to collect evidence of patent infringement.[27]

It's a combination of a major environmental polluter and a patent troll.

Dumping of toxic waste in the UK

Between 1965 and 1972, Monsanto paid contractors to illegally dump thousands of tons of highly toxic waste in UK landfill sites, knowing that their chemicals were liable to contaminate wildlife and people. The Environment Agency said the chemicals were found to be polluting groundwater and the atmosphere 30 years after they were dumped.[71]

The Brofiscin quarry, near Cardiff, erupted in 2003, spilling fumes over the surrounding area, but the local community was unaware that the quarry housed toxic waste.

A UK government report shows that 67 chemicals, including Agent Orange derivatives, dioxins and PCBs exclusively made by Monsanto, are leaking from one unlined porous quarry that was not authorized to take chemical wastes. It emerged that the groundwater has been polluted since the 1970s.[72] The government was criticised for failing to publish information about the scale and exact nature of this contamination. According to the Environment Agency it could cost £100m to clean up the site in south Wales, called "one of the most contaminated" in the UK.[73]

One thing to remember is that patents are fundamentally at odds with food availability. You can either have Big Pharma-like profits, or cheap food that feeds billions.

As it is, countries with functional governments already overproduce food. Zimbabwe used to be called the "Breadbasket of Africa" before Mugabe.

Re: Monsanto chooses Cloudant to power its genome analytics

#138

Post by vijayr » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 9:09 PM UTC

klbarry wrote: post #134

vijayr wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a huge negative publicity, to be associated with a company like Monsanto. Not sure if that would affect Cloudant's future business prospects though. We all know of the sweatshops run by companies like Walmart and Nike, lots of people even complain loudly, but those companies seem to be doing very well, year after year. On the other hand, given the size of Monsanto, there is no doubt that Cloudant could effectiv…

Nike hasn't been an ethically questioned company since 2000. In fact, they're pretty universally acclaimed as one of the most ethical companies in the world now (google Nike Most Ethical). Most of the Monsanto data in this thread is decades old, as well.

Hmmm. May be I haven't kept up, but I definitely remember reading about the labor practices of Nike (vietnam, I think). May be they changed, if they did, kudos to them.

Re: Monsanto chooses Cloudant to power its genome analytics

#139

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 9:10 PM UTC

kongqiu wrote: post #135

nirvana wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not alarmed because there seems to be two very distinct crowds of people who hang out on hacker news. "Startup people", like yourself, who are across the political spectrum, with probably a disproportionate number of libertarians (as compared to the broader population) and the /r/politics crowd which are very anti-capitalist, anti-innovation, pro-taxes, etc. Some threads attract one crowd and the comments go one…

Monsanto is an extreme case, and therefore inspires a lot of passion. I'd say the vast majority of people on HN are pro-capitalism and pro-innovation, but have disparate views on business ethics and the efficacy of various regulations. In the eyes of many, Monsanto crosses the line between "good honest competition" and "dangerous and malevolent would-be monopolist." Also: Way to paint people you disagree with on this…

[deleted]

Re: Monsanto chooses Cloudant to power its genome analytics

#140

Post by chrisbennet » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 9:10 PM UTC

irrumator wrote: post #108

kongqiu wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a place in civilized, rational discussion for ranting. Let's say you're out with two friends discussing the war on drugs, with all kinds of rational, civilized debate on the science, politics, economics, sociology, etc. Suddenly, one friend declares, "Ok, I understand the risks and potential rewards, and I've decided to start dealing coke." Sure, you can try to calmly talk them out of it, and/or you could do…

If we can quit the absurd analogies all over this thread for a minute, can you point me to why Monsanto is so evil in your eyes? Other than a Vanity piece, it seems everyone has come to a preconcluded fact that Monsanto is "evil" somehow. Cloudant is a business, and this is great for their financials, as well as for furthering the research in their tech stack. From reading it, I'm sure many on Hacker News use similar…

The documentary "Food Inc" describes Monsanto's behavior with respect to genetically modified seeds.

Example from my admittedly poor memory: A farmer's neighbor bought Monsanto's genetically modified seeds and some of the seeds blew into the farmers flield. Monsanto sued him and made him destroy all his seeds. When the farmer complained to the government he discover that the official responsible for representing his interests was on the board of Monsanto.

As far as "feeding the hungry". Monsantos seeds are genetically modified produce plants that don't have replantable seeds i.e. every year you have to buy your seeds from Monsanto. The 3rd world can't afford to use Monsanto's seeds and our subsidies of the corn industry make is hard for 3rd world farmers to make a living.