Live data from Hacker News

Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing

meta.wikimedia.org

81–90 of 98 posts

Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing

#81
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surely they are aware that this is basically all IPs nowadays...? There are indeed many classes of IP address which multiplex large numbers of users (mobile network exits, VPN exits, ISPs with CGNAT, some corporate web filtering systems, shared public wifi, tor, satellite ground station exits, residential proxies, ...). However, claiming that "basically all" IPs are multiplexed is definitely wrong. A home or small…

> However, claiming that "basically all" IPs are multiplexed is definitely wrong. A home or small office broadband line typically gets a dynamic-but-ephemerally-unique IP, same as it always did. IPs assigned to homes and small offices are still multiplexed. It's just a case of magnitude. (In other words, it's rare for a home or small office to contain just a single person.) The policy as stated makes no sense, if the…

You're absolutely correct. But: Wikipedia aren't trying to ban all multiplexed IPs. Instead, they're seeking to ban the IPs that bad actors disproportionately use -- and those are the heavily multiplexed ones.

It's kind of the internet equivalent of keeping drug dealers out of your club by banning anyone who lives in a poor area. A lazy (and likely discriminatory) policy, but a simple one, and effective.

Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing

#82

Is the premise over at Wikipedia still that an IP address meaningfully identifies a single editor? I think that ship sailed.

> an IP address meaningfully identifies a single editor I'm fairly certain that the GDPR believes an IP address is PII and imposes a bunch of fairly onerous restrictions on how network administrators are able to log and analyze them. So it doesn't seem like that ship has sailed at all. If anything it's been reinforced by actual law that it _does_ meaningfully identify someone.

The GDPR also protects your name that way too, despite the fact that it might actually identify a multitude of different people (like if you're called John Smith). It does so on the basis that it may under some circumstances be sufficient to identify you personally; same for IP address.

It is very seldom in my experience the case that legislation tells us anything at all about what is true about technology.

Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't work because Wikipedia doesn't store your IP forever if you have an account. If they allowed what you described, then you could make a bunch of accounts with your real IP, wait 90 days for the IP you made it from to be forgotten, then vandalize with them all over VPNs, and they couldn't do anything about it other than reactively blocking each account individually.

Then grade accounts by more than one metric. I've my account for years and made plenty of edits but it's treated like some newbie account that may be a bot? Because I value my privacy? I use Britannica for anything that isn't celebrity/pop culture based now, I thought Wikipedia had killed off "proper" dictionaries but they're going in reverse. I enjoy the irony of that.

I assume the website owner intends to want to show ads or track me for marketing or other data harvesting purchases if they try to do further verification than password + 2FA code. They are forcing CAPTCHAs because they want to make it inconvenient enough such that I disable content blockers on their website.

Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing

#84
While we're talking about Private Relay: with it enabled (on an iPhone), Google won't show me search suggestions. Both google.com and Safari's address/search bar are affected. It's a small feature, but a feature that I rely on often, so it's quite the dealbreaker for me.

Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Want it to be open" but ban mobile network IP addresses, which basically guarantees people below a certain socioeconomic status can't contribute. Loads of people don't have a desktop/laptop, or even internet service at home - just cell service.

If the concern is socioeconomic status: One could still edit from a library, for instance. But yeah, the internet has changed over time, and it is not as nice a place as it used to be. I think it's important that there are still sites where people don't need an account to be able to participate. Wikipedia is one of the last holdouts in the West, and they clearly are having some amount of trouble keeping it 100% that…

>>If the concern is socioeconomic status: One could still edit from a library, for instance.

Just to be clear, your response to "disadvantaged people would likely have a hard time editing Wikipedia from an 'anon' IPs" is "take time and energy (finite resources that are in many cases more valuable than money) and travel somewhere to edit". This is...not a very good argument in your favor? Also, it makes the extremely bold assumption that the library (or whatever publicly available resource) is not IP banned itself because some vandal had the exact same thought.

>>I think it's important that there are still sites where people don't need an account to be able to participate.

Why? If this is important, why isn't it important for everyone? The point I, and other commenters have made, is that you shouldn't say "We care about a free and open internet" when what you mean is "We care about a free and open internet as long as nobody does anything we don't like and we're able to regulate it as we see fit".

These things are a binary, not a scale, despite what some people want to argue. When you start blanket bans that harm people who have done nothing wrong, you're taking a step towards authoritarian and away from pure openness. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" is pointedly saying "we are not prioritizing your needs" and that's what moderation is.

>>Given that you need to prevent abuse, how would you propose to keep things (more) open?

You're admitting defeat here, and showing how useless a word like "free" or "open" is. The site is not more or less open, it's open or closed for some. You being able to freely edit does nothing for my inability to freely edit. You can't average these things together and say "99% of people are free to do what they want" as if that was a meaningful statement for the people who can't. Moderation is antithetical to "free" or "open" speech. I'm for moderation, I just want people to stop pretending that you can have it both ways.

Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia is dominated not by the truth, but by two things: - people who treat articles like their own fiefdoms and have obsessively memorized every sentence of policy and can drown an edit they don't like with subjective assertions that an edit violates a particular policy - no-life basement neckbeards who do thousands and thousands of edits on subjects they couldn't possibly have knowledge or experience on and resp…

100% this, same as you get with reddit moderators and those types of people. There are a lot of people there with agendas who use "the rules" to kill any opinions they don't like.

Same as if you have above 500 karma here and someone criticised Microsoft legitimately after Nadella arrived on the scene…

I regularly throw accounts out in disgust at the political voting.

Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing

#88
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the concern is socioeconomic status: One could still edit from a library, for instance. But yeah, the internet has changed over time, and it is not as nice a place as it used to be. I think it's important that there are still sites where people don't need an account to be able to participate. Wikipedia is one of the last holdouts in the West, and they clearly are having some amount of trouble keeping it 100% that…

>>If the concern is socioeconomic status: One could still edit from a library, for instance. Just to be clear, your response to "disadvantaged people would likely have a hard time editing Wikipedia from an 'anon' IPs" is "take time and energy (finite resources that are in many cases more valuable than money) and travel somewhere to edit". This is...not a very good argument in your favor? Also, it makes the extremely…

I appreciate your advocacy for Wikipedia to continue to allow everyone to edit anonymously. When I was a wikipedia regular I also pushed for this.

Unfortunately, as with everything, some people do abuse this facility. Some abuse it to place misinformation on wikipedia. Other people (like bored teenagers) might vandalize the wiki by deleting all the content on the page and replacing it with a pithy epithet. Then there are bots that skim the internet looking for mediawiki sites and filling them with adverts.

Sometimes you need to block these kinds of activity. Sometimes such abuse comes from a shared address or range, and sometimes such a block thus leads to (hopefully temporary) blocking of innocent bystanders. That is bad.

There are facilities in place to help prevent innocent bystanders from getting caught up. But it's a constant arms race. And if nothing is done at all, wikipedia would quickly cease to operate.

The community discussion is about this situation. Current internet trends have more people editing from behind proxies or shared IP addresses. If these trends continue, perhaps wikimedia will have to figure out new ways to fight abuse and while still allowing people to continue to edit anonymously. This is not something that has happened or will happen by itself. It takes and will take constant monitoring.

I don't think it's a good idea to then just go ahead abolish anonymous editing like some people suggest. Being anonymous on the internet is a great thing that should be a right. We need to continue to find ways to preserve anonymity (and pseudonymity!), and also continue to find ways to keep bad actors from ruining it for anyone else.

Having anonymous participants is orthogonal to whether your community is moderated by the way. In fact you can even have anonymous moderation (which has been a part of how wikipedia works) .

Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing

#89
post #13

There are malicious editors out there. For example, someone repeatedly edited the Kubernetes page on Wikipedia to make some changes that were not true and contradicted by the reference that was used. This is just one example. There is a very real problem, even in technical circles, of wrong information being put on there. In this example, it was always by an anonymous account. How does the Wikimedia foundation attemp…

Wikipedia is dominated not by the truth, but by two things: - people who treat articles like their own fiefdoms and have obsessively memorized every sentence of policy and can drown an edit they don't like with subjective assertions that an edit violates a particular policy - no-life basement neckbeards who do thousands and thousands of edits on subjects they couldn't possibly have knowledge or experience on and resp…

Wikipedia was awesome some time before 2015/2016.

Look up anything even mildly controversial, e.g Gender, Marxism, Capitalism, Globalism, Election Laws, Freedom of Speech, Racism, and then compare 10 years ago to today, using archive.org or by looking at edit history. It feels like a parallel universe, as if history was totally re-written.

Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing

#90
post #57
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not blocking anything is infeasible due to abuse, requiring registration is effectively blocking anonymous editing access for everyone. If you want anonymous editing, providing it to some is strictly better than providing it to none. Your argument is as flawed as saying we shouldn't have email because spammers must be blocked.

>>If you want anonymous editing, providing it to some is strictly better than providing it to none. Objectively: Not always. You're creating a tiered society. The argument is saying "Why do some people deserve freedom but not others?" It's great if you're part of the in-group, but exceedingly unjust if you're non-vandal bycatch due to the blanket bans. You can't have some democracy, it's all or none. I'm unable to an…

It is good that a random AT&T user can edit anonymously. It is bad that you can't. The "but" clause is a trap. You should be able to edit anonymously too.

If trends continue, less people will be able to edit anonymously. This trend needs to be reversed so that as many people as possible can edit anonymously.

Post reply on HN