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Tax the Land

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101–110 of 613 posts

Re: Tax the Land

#101
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The carbon price and dividend shows a great example of how to correctly set incentives. You tax the carbon. That tax money is then put into an account. At the end of the year, every single individual is then given an equal share. The disincentives the use of carbon, while at the same time providing means that a majority of people actually get a net benefit. The land tax should be set so that the price of the house be…

"The land tax should be set so that the price of the house becomes just the price of the house - the cost of the materials and labor." How is that even possible? The root cause of property values being high in specific areas is because demand is high. Without changing demand, I don't see how it can just be labor and materials, especially since the buyer will be paying land value tax as well (since it's not a condo, h…

An increase in the tax of the land reduces the purchase price of the land.

It's the exact same thing in reverse with interest rates over time. As mortgage interest rates drop, the monthly payment is what people look at, so home prices go up.

Re: Tax the Land

#102
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The land tax should be set so that the price of the house becomes just the price of the house - the cost of the materials and labor." How is that even possible? The root cause of property values being high in specific areas is because demand is high. Without changing demand, I don't see how it can just be labor and materials, especially since the buyer will be paying land value tax as well (since it's not a condo, h…

An increase in the tax of the land reduces the purchase price of the land. It's the exact same thing in reverse with interest rates over time. As mortgage interest rates drop, the monthly payment is what people look at, so home prices go up.

I doubt that would actually occur. People with deep pockets could buy it up because they don't care about the tax. They'll just pass the cost on to renters anyways.

Re: Tax the Land

#103
post #94
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If I have .75 acres with a single family home and 30 years later the area around me is developed I think this is exactly the framework. The idea is that that person right now is benefitting from increased community wealth (which would be realized in actual moneys upon sale of their property), and hence, should be taxed more. Maybe there are some sophisticated ways to strike a balance, to avoid the situation you are…

"(which would be realized in actual moneys upon sale of their property), and hence, should be taxed more." If it were taxed only when realized, that would make sense. "It's the poor use of land right now that I believe is the main driver of poor affordability of housing." It's the preference of a large number of people to live in a small area. You could fix this by capping the number of jobs so that increases in popu…

> You could fix this by capping the number of jobs so that increases in population would be forced to distribute more evenly through the country

Interesting idea. But wondering how this would work in practice.

The Federal government often does this when they distribute their own facilities across the country.

Businesses already flock to places were cost of labor is low, but can only that in industries that require less specialization.

> otherwise competition and property tax would have made a dent

You said it. There is no competition, because housing supply is constrained (zoning), and property tax does not make a dent, because it favors speculation over improvements (further inhibiting competition).

Re: Tax the Land

#104
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Getting that 0.75 acres to turn over is exactly the point. Incentivizing them to leave (or better yet: subdivide and sell the land) is good for society." I doubt the affected person feels it's good. Quite frankly, the land value tax ideas seem absurd to me. It's just another redistribution scheme - work hard, retire, get forced off your land via tax. It seems it's the government's and everyone else's desire to just…

It's not solely a redistribution scheme. It's based on the fundamental principle that the government is the ultimate owner of all land, and private individuals are simply renters. If you accept this to be true and good, then it makes perfect sense. If you are the type that wants to be non dependent on the government, it is deeply grating.

"If you accept this to be true and good oh, then it makes perfect sense."

One can accept that the government owns the land while simultaneously believing that the government can abuse that power, just like a bad landlord can.

Re: Tax the Land

#105
post #103
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"(which would be realized in actual moneys upon sale of their property), and hence, should be taxed more." If it were taxed only when realized, that would make sense. "It's the poor use of land right now that I believe is the main driver of poor affordability of housing." It's the preference of a large number of people to live in a small area. You could fix this by capping the number of jobs so that increases in popu…

> You could fix this by capping the number of jobs so that increases in population would be forced to distribute more evenly through the country Interesting idea. But wondering how this would work in practice. The Federal government often does this when they distribute their own facilities across the country. Businesses already flock to places were cost of labor is low, but can only that in industries that require le…

What I mean by no competition is that the high earners from FAANG etc are able to muscle out any "normal" people. So there is some competition driving up prices, but most people lost before the game even started. Essentially the wealthy have no incentive to keep costs/bids down.

Re: Tax the Land

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Land Value Taxers would exempt improvements. Notably, "The Greening of the California Desert" was financed with Land Value Taxes and "A significant amendment to the Wright Act also embodies the ideas of Henry George. The revised act exempted "all trees, vines, alfalfa, growing crops and all the structures of whatever class or description," from taxation. The full cost of the irrigation systems to be built would…

Some Land value taxers would exempt improvements. however, in practice, it is very difficult separate the hypothetical pre-improvement value from market value. Imagine trying to asses the value of a modern farm today for the hypothetical where a connecting aqueduct had not been built 70 years ago. Exempting improvements also undermines the argument that LVT puts the land to it's best possible use. When you improve la…

This is why we're starting occasionally to use the term "location value" instead of "land value". When we are taxing the land, what we are really accomplishing most of the time is taxing the positive externalities that your city is providing, as well as that or your neighbors and businesses.

Building the aqueduct, or a city building a train terminal, both provide positive externalities for the entire region. Those externalities should be taxed.

The soil quality or clearing of forest itself is an improvement much the same way a house is, so that would not be taxed.

Re: Tax the Land

#107
post #43

I don't think the issue is taxing land per se, or even property, it's making illegal and taxing practices that are seen as immoral or not in societys best interest. This gets dangerously vague, but it has always been puzzling to me why actually blighted properties, essentially abandoned by owners not living anywhere near the area, werent taxed at ridiculously high rates. The other side of the coin is municipalities a…

> it has always been puzzling to me why actually blighted properties, essentially abandoned by owners not living anywhere near the area, werent taxed at ridiculously high rates. Because the governments don't want to take possession o the houses. If you tax them high, the owners default, because taxes exceed the property value. Then the government is the owner of a low value deteriorating asset that nobody wants. This…

Yes that has crossed my mind. However, I'm also aware of very publicized cases in my area where there was serious interest in a property from several serious, large buyers, it was sitting unused, like as an empty unused parking lot, but the owner, out of state and region, wouldn't sell and also wouldn't develop it (why this is the case no one could tell). These cases went on for decades, with the government eventually attempting to take over the property by eminent domain (there were concerns about economic effects of the property, which actually has relevance to some nationally publicized news stories the last couple of years), only to have them rebuked in court. I don't even remember how they resolved anymore because I got tired of trying to pay attention.

Anyway, to be clear, I'm not advocating for land taxes per se. I have also seen many, many examples of corrupt seizure of, or valuation of, property by the government and that's its own set of problems. What I'm saying is it should be possible to codify into law some "red line" circumstances where properties do get taxed or seized. Someone who is living on the property would be exempt, for example. Neglected property in an area that is targeted for renewal, with multiple serious offers that economists agree are more than fair, being refused by a party who resides in another region, over long periods of time, seems like a different issue.

Maybe this is all more difficult than I think. It just seems to me there are some cases that are so clearly egregious that the vast majority of the population agrees there are problems (in either direction: with government overreach or private overreach) that you could define those circumstances. Right now it seems to me a lot of time is wasted on controversial land use issues and not enough on addressing things where there is more consensus.

Re: Tax the Land

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Land Value Taxers would exempt improvements. Notably, "The Greening of the California Desert" was financed with Land Value Taxes and "A significant amendment to the Wright Act also embodies the ideas of Henry George. The revised act exempted "all trees, vines, alfalfa, growing crops and all the structures of whatever class or description," from taxation. The full cost of the irrigation systems to be built would…

Some Land value taxers would exempt improvements. however, in practice, it is very difficult separate the hypothetical pre-improvement value from market value. Imagine trying to asses the value of a modern farm today for the hypothetical where a connecting aqueduct had not been built 70 years ago. Exempting improvements also undermines the argument that LVT puts the land to it's best possible use. When you improve la…

It is not very difficult to separate improvements from the land. Critically, due to the deadweight loss of present taxes, even an inaccurate LVT would be superior to the present tax system. The margin of error for LVT is essentially "is it worse than the present system?" I'd recommend reading -

Can Land be Assessed at Highest and Best Use? - https://www.jstor.org/stable/43817496?read-now=1&refreqid=ex...

and

Administrative Simplicity - https://www.jstor.org/stable/43817496?read-now=1&refreqid=ex...

and https://www.jstor.org/stable/43817496?read-now=1&refreqid=ex...

As a simple practical matter, the "Highest and Best Use" is ultimately subservient to "demand for land". Simply because you -could- build the Empire State Building in the desert does not make it so that every plot of land in this desert is assessed at this level. In fact, if you were to build the Empire State Building in the middle of nowhere, the rental value of the plot and the surrounding plots would remain at or near $0. It is inaccurate to suggest that the improvement gives the land its value. People give the land its value, and the location value is not equal to the improvements. Why would I pay someone else rent (which is ultimately what we're discussing here) when I could make those same improvements elsewhere? Louis F Post gets into this point below

It is also important to recognize that the principle of assessment should be seen more about adjacent activity not your own activity. See: http://www.wealthandwant.com/themes/Neighbors%27_Actions.htm...

"Q6. If a land-owner builds, does not that increase the value of his land and consequently the amount of the tax he would have to pay? If so, would not he be taxed for his improvement? A. No. Upon the value of the building he would never pay any tax. It is true that his improvement might attract others to the locality in such numbers as to make land there scarcer and consequently dearer. His own lot would in that case rise in value with the other land and be taxed more, just as the rest would be. But that would not take any of his labor in taxes; he would still have his building free of taxation. Thus: If on a lot worth $1000 a building worth $1000 were erected, making the whole worth $2000, the tax would fall only upon the $1000 which represents the value of the lot. If land then became so scarce that the lot rose in value to $1500 the tax would be raised. But the owner's improvement would be still exempt. When his property was worth $2000 he was taxed on $1000, the value of the lot, leaving $1000, the value of the building, free; and now, though he is taxed on $1500, the value of the lot, $1000, the value of the building, is still free."

and

https://masongaffney.org/publications/G44Philosophy_of_Publi...

Land and its value is the joint product of at least three things:

• nature, which created it;

• government, which acquired it from other sovereigns and protects it from other powers and extends public works for the public's benefit; and

• synergism, which is the increment to value that spills over from social and economic activity in the neighborhood of each parcel of land.

Value stemming from all these elements is regarded as unearned by the individual landowner. It is the product of outside forces and therefore a fit object of taxation

Re: Tax the Land

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An increase in the tax of the land reduces the purchase price of the land. It's the exact same thing in reverse with interest rates over time. As mortgage interest rates drop, the monthly payment is what people look at, so home prices go up.

I doubt that would actually occur. People with deep pockets could buy it up because they don't care about the tax. They'll just pass the cost on to renters anyways.

The reason that most taxes can be passed on is because as price is raised, the supply and demand curve is pushed and less is made. With land, there is a finite supply, none can be created, none can be destroyed, so land value taxes can not be passed on.

As the land value will always be zero, there is little value in holding land that you are not using productively, so speculation will drop heavily.

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