Shouldn't the link be to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Apple_iCloud_Private_Relay ?
Now it's linking to the discussion page. Which is definitely very interesting and useful, but probably not the page that was intended?
Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing
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Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing
#62I'm finding it a bit hard to follow the structure of this document so forgive me if this is what's being discussed, but wouldn't it make the most sense to block Anonymous editing from Apple Private Relay IP ranges? Once signed in, there is again a way to track the editor, and a way to deal with bad actors.
Linked page:
"We are looking for answers to the following questions: Are you seeing problems related to the current iCloud Private Relay global blocks [1] on your wiki? Do you think that it's likely that good-faith editors will be affected by blocks? While we do not know for sure, we think that this situation may grow over the next couple of years. It is possible that other browsers, such as Chrome and Firefox, could follow a similar pattern and also restrict access to IP addresses. If this happens, it will be a major change in how the internet works. What do you think, in what ways would this change affect the wikis?"
[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_blocks
"Global blocks are technical actions performed to prevent an IP address or range of IP addresses from editing all Wikimedia wikis, for a fixed period of time or indefinitely. Global blocks disable account creation from the blocked IP by default, and can also prevent editing while logged in to an account."
Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing
#63Is the premise over at Wikipedia still that an IP address meaningfully identifies a single editor? I think that ship sailed.
The EU legally recognizes IP addresses as personally identifiable information.
Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing
#64Where does this end? Like if the end goal is to block every IP that has a bad reputation score, why not go all in and block every Tor exit IP and every popular VPN exit node too? If you're gonna do something, do it right. That said, there's nothing stopping me hacking a residential router to make my (anonymous) Wikipedia edits.
I think it ends with flipping from default open to default closed. Want to edit Wikipedia? Register and provide your identification.
A lot of smaller sites based on wiki-technology do that already. The only reason wikipedia can stay (semi) open is because it has enough people to do regular patrols.
As usual it's a small misbehaving minority in the world who make it difficult to Have Nice Things.
Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm regularly blocked from editing because I'm on a VPN. I don't get it, as long as I'm logged in then what's the problem? I'd love to know.
That doesn't work because Wikipedia doesn't store your IP forever if you have an account. If they allowed what you described, then you could make a bunch of accounts with your real IP, wait 90 days for the IP you made it from to be forgotten, then vandalize with them all over VPNs, and they couldn't do anything about it other than reactively blocking each account individually.
> other than reactively blocking each account individually.
That doesn't seem all that unviable, at least specifically for Apple Private Relay IP ranges, is my point.
Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing
#66Stupid and disappointing. Wikipedia and others should move decisively away from using IP addresses as any form of unique ID and address the actual problem in a way that still preserves the option for useful pseudonymity and participation. The basic issue with moderation is the balance between the time/resource cost of moderation and the time/resource cost of evading it times the quantity of bad actor interest. Like i…
These ideas always fall short for various reasons in practice. One is that you mainly punish honest users who have to install and run this PoW crapware just to make a small but legit edit. Wait, I have to lock up my CPU for how long to fix a typo I stumbled upon? Lol, forget it then. Meanwhile, abusers just farm PoW solutions and make it negligible. You end up with a solution that’s even easier to farm than quick exp…
When making a response it helps to actually read the comment and engage in good faith.
>One is that you mainly punish honest users who have to install and run this PoW crapware just to make a small but legit edit.
I covered this. It's trivial in such a system to still have no-cost be the default, and ramp up only for certain criteria or during hot spells. Which is what I wrote. Also, an RSA cracker can run fine as javascript, no need to install anything. And legitimate users can build up over long periods. Further, how do IP bans, the existing default, line up with your "honest users" thing hmmmmm? You did at least read the title of this comment section right? You are aware that this is all in the context of something that is also a broad sledgehammer right?
>And your idea doesn’t stop you from having to implement moderation anyways.
I never suggested it did? Quite the contrary? Hello?
>You have to do the same work.
No, you don't have to the same work if attackers cannot attack as quickly and cheaply. Duh.
Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing
#67I'm finding it a bit hard to follow the structure of this document so forgive me if this is what's being discussed, but wouldn't it make the most sense to block Anonymous editing from Apple Private Relay IP ranges? Once signed in, there is again a way to track the editor, and a way to deal with bad actors.
I'm regularly blocked from editing because I'm on a VPN. I don't get it, as long as I'm logged in then what's the problem? I'd love to know.
My strong suspicion is that the blocking is done at a different layer.
Much easier to simply block posts/puts to certain paths from ip ranges in the ingress layer, before they ever reach the application and are authenticated.
Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing
#68can someone explain why an account isn't a requirement to contribute to Wikipedia?
I'll let Aaron Swartz explain.
http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/whowriteswikipedia
It turns out the long tail of anonymous editors is actually a force to be reckoned with. Or was at the time of writing, at least!
Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing
#69I'm finding it a bit hard to follow the structure of this document so forgive me if this is what's being discussed, but wouldn't it make the most sense to block Anonymous editing from Apple Private Relay IP ranges? Once signed in, there is again a way to track the editor, and a way to deal with bad actors.
I'm regularly blocked from editing because I'm on a VPN. I don't get it, as long as I'm logged in then what's the problem? I'd love to know.
For what it's worth, there's a policy for requesting an exemption to an IP block: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IP_block_exemption
Re: Wikipedia globally blocks Apple Private Relay IP ranges from editing
#70I'm finding it a bit hard to follow the structure of this document so forgive me if this is what's being discussed, but wouldn't it make the most sense to block Anonymous editing from Apple Private Relay IP ranges? Once signed in, there is again a way to track the editor, and a way to deal with bad actors.
I'm regularly blocked from editing because I'm on a VPN. I don't get it, as long as I'm logged in then what's the problem? I'd love to know.
Hard IP bans are the exception and used when a lot of sock puppets are involved operating from the same IP range. Soft IP blocks don't prevent logged in users from editing. On enwiki you can try to get a 12-month IP block exemption: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IP_block_exemption