Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: What creative field will be safe from AI?

news.ycombinator.com

51–55 of 55 posts

Re: Ask HN: What creative field will be safe from AI?

#51
There are areas of art where the main draw is that it was made by a human. Despite cameras and image filters, hyperrealistic pencil drawings are still appreciated because they're an impressive demonstration of human talent.

However, I'd assume those employ very few people compared to more "functional" creative jobs where the end product is what matters most, like creating clip-art for a company website or character portraits for a video-game. I think there's a large risk here that teams of artists will be collapsed into a single "art director" job, for cost-saving and faster results.

In terms of creative jobs that have safety due to difficulty in automating, maybe something involving bespoke physical products like prop/set/costume/lighting design for a movie?

----

It hasn't yet been 10 years since AlexNet (often seen as kicking off the current deep learning trend, though not strictly the first at anything). I think people are being overconfident in the idea that current specific DL weaknesses will remain weaknesses in the upcoming decades of your career.

I've set a long-term reminder to look back at this thread since I'm interested in seeing how well predictions/sentiments have held up, some I'll collate below along with questions for my future self:

> This really isn't going to change much. DALLE-2 has and will likely for a long time have a lot of imperfections that will never be fixed.

> Even if AI can mimic style with style transfer, it will never achieve greatness this way.

Using baseline of a human artist, do generated images still exhibit a large number of imperfections? Do blind tests show generated artworks are considered inferior quality to human artworks?

> Due to the inherit way that these GANs work it's not going to force anyone really out of business.

> Art is about human expression. It is less about the end product and more about the journey and expression that got to that end product. This machine learning art generation skips all of that. I personally wouldn't worry about it.

> They will no more replace artists than photoshop or illustrator did.

> All of 'em. All of them will be safe.

Have any artists been made redundant due generative models? Should artists starting their career in the 2020s have been worried?

> There is also something cool and interesting about AI generated art currently because it is new and fresh. At some point though that will wear off.

Has the interest in generated art worn off? If so, was that because it was passing fad, or because it's now so commonplace that it's considered normal?

Re: Ask HN: What creative field will be safe from AI?

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really isn't going to change much. DALLE-2 has and will likely for a long time have a lot of imperfections that will never be fixed. Due to the inherit way that these GANs work it's not going to force anyone really out of business. At most it could help artists with their day to day tasks but not really much more. You in effect have to create the proper datasets to even generate proper images itself. Even if the…

> DALLE-2 has and will likely for a long time have a lot of imperfections Sure. > that will never be fixed. Less sure. > Due to the inherit way that these GANs Not a GAN. DALLE-2 uses a diffusion model for generation and a transformer/diffusion to convert CLIP text embeds to CLIP image embeds. DALLE-1 used a variational autoencoder, not a GAN. I mention this simply because both diffusion and VAE's seem to be more rob…

> Machine learning requires lots of hardware - that's the best moat these companies can have. NVIDIA GPU's and Google TPU's are what's to be concerned about here.

With each concurrent generation the cost to produce the tools necessary with decrease exponentially as hardware also become more freely available. I don't see hardware as a limiting factor. Though the two monopolies have been known to work together to slow down technological progress. Honestly I think that our progress would likely have gone a lot faster without them. But for some strange reason they would rather follow moore's law. I don't really believe moore's law exists, there's limits to everything and the rules they mention are unsustainable and unrealistic. It makes me wonder where the real end of it is or if we've made the wrong decisions along the way solely for profit motive. How many times has funding been cut for research programs simply because nothing happened for a single quarter?

Like most Generative Artificial Networks, DALLE-2 is not really anything new. In the computer graphics field several research groups have been discussing similar techniques for decades. I've even seen a few demos by various colleges of their own implementations. The idea that DALLE is the future next step for several fields such as art is misleading at best and straight up delusional at worst. The main reason I state the issues within DALLE-2 not being fixed is mainly due to these factors. It's the wrong direction for this type of problem especially so for the billions of parameters that they use. The hyperfixation that google is attempting to do to this industry for it's own financial interests will pigeonhole several companies towards suboptimal solutions that will at best give them a somewhat workable solution at an expensive price. This of which will likely bankrupt them in the process as even with improvements to techniques will still cost them in the millions to produce even a few of these samples simply due to the labor cost involved.

While the art industry has been transformed by the technology industry through the gig economy intentionally for this purpose. Even at those rates you still end up with the cost of producing the models being outcompeted by the value provided. This is especially true as art improves overtime, the level of detail and fidelity along with varying art styles. Not to mention the fact it is an unsustainable model that prey on artists by systemically abusing them by turning them into slaves. But who am I say that it won't just collapse. After all companies such as walt disney, pixar, and dreamworks have been known for doing just this for decades. As other countries build "incentive" plans to systemically enslave their workers as well to outsource the art work towards studios abroad as well this likely won't change. Even the best animation studios such as Studio Ghibli only pay just above the poverty line. While it's never been my dream to draw or even write the idea that people of any kind being subject to abuse is something that I can't bear to see. All I can say is my deep hate for this never ending rat race. I always find it interesting when I read about these algorithms how the people who read, learn and create them seemingly have no sense of empathy for those that they seem to see as beneath them. Though I'm not claiming to say that you, yourself are to blame or are even contributing towards it. It's just something that bothers me.

Anyways, continuing on towards copyright. It's interesting to me how these datasets are generated is through the theft of artwork. I've already mentioned the labor cost involved in generating their own datasets and to mention it's unlikely anyone besides google will be able to afford to get away with this simply due to the magnitude of the lawsuit they would face. (It would likely be class action.) It always makes me wonder just how detrimental such as case would be and the effects of it due to how the U.S. Judicial System works. Though Silicon Valley has always been known for it's corruption and bribing of government officials, who knows? They might win. But it doesn't necessarily mean it will affect the entire industry as a whole but it might. It's interesting because there are already several papers on this matter that show that these neural networks work by copying those images. But you'll never know how a company like google can spin that. I always found it interesting that programmers think of machine learning as a black box.

The tool itself is largely unaffordable for large scale implementation and you would be better off working on other GAN's instead to help artists. Of course there's no one size fits all solution to this problem even though google would like to claim otherwise the quality of the images are useless for professionally done products without requiring heavy altercations. Teaching an entire generation to rely on this tool is likely going to end up counterproductive especially if it results in them losing the fine skills that are required to be developed for the task. I can see this going in several ways that could all end up horribly such as younger artists being forced to draw for the models themselves or being forced to be turned in essentially a data encoder writing labels for the dataset without having an practical skills or learning much. Or in how it's currently going the work being forced into sweatshop like conditions in 3rd world countries with an English speaking majority. Worsening the existing caste system within this industry. Maybe we'll see snip bits of it like on the tags of our jeans and tee shirts secretly hidden away, when a member of the upper caste clicks to generate an image instead what's returned are the words help me no food no water instead. The respective employee fired after attribution of the code is uncovered. Or on a lighter note artists secretly drawing penises on everything in order for the neural network to secretly generate penises on every image it draws.

I'm frankly upset. Not at you but an industry. Sorry if this sounds like a tangent or if it sound like I'm blowing up on you.

While the ideas mentioned may sound like my own they are not. While I'm unable to give sources to whose they are but I stand behind them.

Re: Ask HN: What creative field will be safe from AI?

#53
This will be a great tool!

Think about how many hours you’ll save creating concept boards. The only trick will be to get this thing to spit out several different styles of the same image so you can match the style your going for.

I’m not seeing much competition for this thing to create a visual language for an idea.

Re: Ask HN: What creative field will be safe from AI?

#54

Do something where there's no training data available. The AI companies are re-encoding large corpora of human creative work as a kind of compressed, conceptually-indexed representation. This allows that work to be mixed and the patterns regurgitated in very flexible ways. Everybody's output (our creative work) is assimilated by the AI, and becomes the AI's output. For example, OpenAI's Codex is trained on about 54 m…

I've been wondering about giving artists some sort of adversarial filter to post their creations online and have it complicate or ruin training.

Re: Ask HN: What creative field will be safe from AI?

#55
I believe all creative fields will be safe from AI because machines cannot be creative. Whatever machines can do, we will need human ingenuity to apply those in creative ways (which are acts that includes things like being mindful of others, or culture, of psychology of ethics and so on). The problem is the definition of this word creative and whether you see it as a word used to describe particular kinds of human experiences (which take culture, psychology and other contextual issues into account) or the more "modern" view of creative which is about a "power" in the mind to produce outputs which we can ascribe things like "novelty", "value" and "significant". (You can trace this back to Guilford in 1950). We should think of AI as another tool to support and challenge and provoke the creative human experience of both making work, but also in in providing us with new approaches to appreciate the outputs of others. Creativty is an attitude, a state of mind, a curiosity about the nature of things .... go back and read Deweys "Art as Experience" and if you want to see a more recent take on AI from this perspective check out:

https://research.gold.ac.uk/id/eprint/26094/1/arts-08-00036....

https://research.gold.ac.uk/id/eprint/26094/1/arts-08-00036....

Post reply on HN