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Ethereum Has Issues

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Re: Ethereum Has Issues

#91

Post by yucky »

otterley wrote: post #81
yucky wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Show me a marketplace without regulation and I will show you a marketplace best avoided if possible. I buy all of my vegetables from the roadside stands that are completely unregulated, and often set up in proximity to other stands with other offerings. I get a higher quality at a lower price - works out great.

Come on, there’s still plenty of regulation involved. There are regulations controlling the quality of the water that’s irrigating the fields, and they’re not using raw human waste to fertilize the plants.

The water used on fields in my area is non-potable. As far as human waste goes, I don't think it's regulations preventing that, but rather efficiency. Other animal waste is used as fertilizer, because it works better.

Re: Ethereum Has Issues

#92

Post by rufusroflpunch »

This is not directly related to the content of the post but is about Ethereum. I have been putting this hypothesis out there on twitter for a while now, looking for someone to refute me, but no one has yet. This seems like a place where I might be able to find someone who understand Ethereum enough tell my grasp of the protocol is wrong (or right):

Ethereum is going deflationary. Not disinflationary like Bitcoin, but actually deflationary, with token burn. Whether you think deflationary money is bad or good is not germane to the problem I'm about to explain, as I see it.

Ethereum makes a claim at decentralization. However, by moving to a Proof of Stake system, they have set a fixed amount to be staked (32 ETH in this case, though the number itself does not matter). With the token going deflationary, that means that the opportunity cost to stake will always be increasing, mathematically, in ETH terms. The staking requirement does not adjust to changing token supply.

For argument's sake, if there are 100 ETH on the network, and you stake 1 ETH, you effectively need to lock away 1/100 of all wealth on the network. However, if 10 tokens get burned, now you lock away 1/90 wealth on the network. Staking that 1 ETH just got 10% more expensive because the opportunity cost of staking that ETH increased relative to spending it.

Economically, this means that the system is going to drive out marginal stakers, by design. The only response I have gotten from ETH holders is about staking pools, but staking pools don't fix the underlying economic incentive brought about by deflation: increasingly holders will find it less worthwhile to stake their ETH.

It seems to me that ETH is headed right for some kind of centralization death spiral, as only increasingly wealthier holders will be able to justify staking.

Re: Ethereum Has Issues

#93

Post by maupin »

bulbosaur123 wrote: post #83

Let me guess. "It's still early". No it's not. "Still early" is the laggard's cope. We are in late stage of adoption, entire countries (El Salvador) have adopted Bitcoin, to what effect is up for discussion. One thing is clear, it's no longer "early".

Maybe not early, but saying that we are in the "late stages of adoption" is laughable.

Re: Ethereum Has Issues

#94

Post by cool_dude85 »

otterley wrote: post #81
yucky wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Show me a marketplace without regulation and I will show you a marketplace best avoided if possible. I buy all of my vegetables from the roadside stands that are completely unregulated, and often set up in proximity to other stands with other offerings. I get a higher quality at a lower price - works out great.

Come on, there’s still plenty of regulation involved. There are regulations controlling the quality of the water that’s irrigating the fields, and they’re not using raw human waste to fertilize the plants.

Well, then this is also true of crypto - there are regulations about how the electricity used for PoW is generated, transmitted, distributed, regulations about how these transactions should be reported for tax purposes, etc.

But that's not what he's talking about.

Re: Ethereum Has Issues

#95

Post by chrisco255 »

wussboy wrote: post #60
chrisco255 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me a regulated market that is free of front-running. It doesn't exist.

So, because we cannot eliminate every issue with regulation, we shouldn't have any regulation? Surely the answer is in "just the right amount" of regulation. Getting to this sweet spot is a process, but one human societies have been approaching for some time. We would be foolish to throw out all that effort because it couldn't be perfect.

What does that even mean in this case? There is no regulation against front-running. Take the stock market for example. Everyone knows that high frequency traders moved all of their infrastructure to be as close as possible to Wall Street to get sub-second advantages on trades. No one batted an eye. Of course, could you stop it if you tried? Information is asymmetrically distributed someone will always find and exploit an advantage somewhere and it's impossible to be fair.

Everyone knows that Wall Street got bailed out in 2008 by the very same regulators you say are for our own good. Everyone knows Wall Street and Black Rock got the biggest squeeze from the Covid stimulus. In return we got $1400, 10% inflation, and a drop in real income. And front-running still happens. Hell the whole business model for Robinhood, the app, which charges zero trading fees, is to package up their retail users trades and sell the orders to high frequency traders who will squeeze out profits from front running or sandwiching the orders.

Also, everyone knows that Congress does insider trading and the speaker of the House is the worst offender. Everyone knows that the revolving door that moves between regulators and the financial sector is incestuous.

The regulations you praise are written by the lobbyists and companies who benefit the most. And I'm not in that club. Maybe you are and that's why you defend it. But it ain't me.

Re: Ethereum Has Issues

#96

Post by pshc »

rufusroflpunch wrote: post #92

This is not directly related to the content of the post but is about Ethereum. I have been putting this hypothesis out there on twitter for a while now, looking for someone to refute me, but no one has yet. This seems like a place where I might be able to find someone who understand Ethereum enough tell my grasp of the protocol is wrong (or right): Ethereum is going deflationary. Not disinflationary like Bitcoin, but…

Staking pays all stakers out proportional to their stake, which is as fair as is possible, and more fair than PoW. Distributed staking pools lower the barrier to entry to 0.01 ETH.

Ethereum will still be printing ETH in perpetuity; it only becomes deflationary whenever more is burned than printed.

Re: Ethereum Has Issues

#98

Post by jqpabc123 »

yucky wrote: post #74
jqpabc123 wrote: post #30

Without regulation, the marketplace --- any marketplace --- becomes a platform for scams and extortion. Show me a marketplace without regulation and I will show you a marketplace best avoided if possible.

>Show me a marketplace without regulation and I will show you a marketplace best avoided if possible. I buy all of my vegetables from the roadside stands that are completely unregulated, and often set up in proximity to other stands with other offerings. I get a higher quality at a lower price - works out great.

I get a higher quality at a lower price - works out great.

Are you sure? A lot of these are "the hippies ripping off the yuppies".

In my area, they often sell the same stuff as the grocery stores --- just priced differently. A little basket of 4 tomatoes (usually about 2 lbs) is $5. The grocery store price is $1.49/lb (or less if you shop at Lidl or Aldi).

The price isn't regulated but there are lots of other regulations involved along with legal liability if they poison customers.

Re: Ethereum Has Issues

#99

Post by recursive »

pshc wrote: post #87
pavel_lishin wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> once proof of stake finality arrives Which it hasn't, despite being six months away for years now. You cannot handwave away problems by promising you'll fix them with X in Y months, when you consistently fail to deliver X.

I keep seeing this "eternal six months away" FUD, but no one wants to admit the devs delivered on the Beacon Chain which has been running smoothly for 1.5 years, and the Merge testnets are working quite well. Bitcoin maximalists are out there all day grousing about made-up deadlines promised by strawmen and laundered through hearsay. It has nothing to do with reality.

I understand the arguments about how cryptocurrencies use too much electricity, but I understand none of what you've just said.

Re: Ethereum Has Issues

#100

Post by aardvarkr »

yucky wrote: post #74
jqpabc123 wrote: post #30

Without regulation, the marketplace --- any marketplace --- becomes a platform for scams and extortion. Show me a marketplace without regulation and I will show you a marketplace best avoided if possible.

>Show me a marketplace without regulation and I will show you a marketplace best avoided if possible. I buy all of my vegetables from the roadside stands that are completely unregulated, and often set up in proximity to other stands with other offerings. I get a higher quality at a lower price - works out great.

And what about the unregulated supply chain for those goods? Do you know they’re actually higher quality? How do you know they’re not just buying the cheapest thing from Mexico or the passed over produce from a local farmer and hawking it to you at premium prices?
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