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You’re muted – or are you? Videoconferencing apps may listen when mic is off

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Re: You’re muted – or are you? Videoconferencing apps may listen when mic is off

#251

Post by ShakataGaNai »

This is a mountain out of a mole hill. All of the video conference apps I've been on (like Zoom and Teams) are very clear that they don't give up the mic when they mute. They are simply not sending your audio. The apps even give you a helpful message on screen when you make noise but are muted. The "Trying to talk? You're muted!" type of message. How else would they get that other than to be monitoring the mic constantly?

Also there is a big difference between having the mic, listening for consistent sound above a certain level.... and actually doing something with it.

Re: You’re muted – or are you? Videoconferencing apps may listen when mic is off

#252

Post by im_down_w_otp »

sharken wrote: post #196
notreallyserio wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a weird culture around reporting problems without reporting names. You see it a lot here on HN and occasionally in media. I'll never understand. Why bother talking about corporate misbehavior (or etc) and not back it up with the basic, minimal data you could provide?

They state that their findings will be presented at Privacy Enhancing Technologies Symposium in July. So it seems they want to keep some info for that event. Should i hazard a guess, it would be either Zoom or Teams.

My guess was going to be Google Meets because I suspect this happens in order to pipe audio to their voice to text translation engine they use to offer you the live closed-captioning feature.

As well as, I assume, to archive a text indexable/searchable log of your conversations. I say this latter part based on multiple experiences I've had receiving clearly targeted advertising for topics I make random passing jokes or commentary about in live conversation, but which I've never once searched, click-imprinted, etc. for online. But, this is purely suspicious speculation. The live closed-captioning feature is a real thing and a thing I could absolutely see resulting in Google always sending audio streams to their backend for.

Re: You’re muted – or are you? Videoconferencing apps may listen when mic is off

#253

Post by coldtea »

willcipriano wrote: post #191
notreallyserio wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a weird culture around reporting problems without reporting names. You see it a lot here on HN and occasionally in media. I'll never understand. Why bother talking about corporate misbehavior (or etc) and not back it up with the basic, minimal data you could provide?

Makes claims impossible to falsify, without naming names nobody can poke holes in your analysis.

Or, you know, keeps your ass safe from being sued...

Re: You’re muted – or are you? Videoconferencing apps may listen when mic is off

#254

Post by cogman10 »

ElemenoPicuares wrote: post #215
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You see it a lot here on HN and occasionally in media It makes some sense here on HN where people often post under their real names and want to think carefully before badmouthing a former employer, or otherwise picking a fight. I agree that journalists have little excuse.

> I agree that journalists have little excuse. Except wanting anyone, ever to talk to them again about something controversial.

I disagree.

Bob Woodward has gotten PLENTY of high level politicians to talk to him candidly even though he's publishing what they are saying often in an unflattering light.

If someone as famous as the watergate guy can STILL get politicians to talk to him, what does a random journalist have to fear?

I mean, FFS, the gamer nexus guy got newegg to talk to him even after blasting them about ripping him off and letting them know "we are recording everything".

Journalists are acting like a single inkling of a bad word said will lock them out of access to everyone everywhere. The truth is, there are so many journalists out there that one could make a career of asking hard questions and publishing unflattering statements and the STILL would likely not be recognized by most individuals if they asked for an interview.

Re: You’re muted – or are you? Videoconferencing apps may listen when mic is off

#255

Post by anurbasic »

threeseed wrote: post #249
qiskit wrote: post #13

Isn't it common knowledge by now that cameras and microphones are still "on" even if you disable it at the software level? Zuckerburg has been taping webcam/microphones/etc for a while now. Though being the CEO of a major corporation requires you take privacy more seriously. https://www.macworld.com/article/228326/mic-drop-how-to-keep...

> Isn't it common knowledge by now that cameras and microphones are still "on" No. Can you provide evidence. Because that would imply that applications are routinely bypassing OS security controls. Which at least on a Mac requires a sophisticated compromise i.e. the camera light is directly linked to the camera itself via an independent subsystem.

Instagram uses camera as soon as you open the app, as it's a relatively slow process to fully load the camera and make it fully usable in a way Instagram devs intended to.

They've admitted it themselves. Not sure about microphones.

Re: You’re muted – or are you? Videoconferencing apps may listen when mic is off

#256

Post by BeFlatXIII »

Godel_unicode wrote: post #18
SkyPuncher wrote: post #10

I feel like they're trying to make an insidious suggestion about the usage of these. IMO, there's likely a good reason - user experience. At a hardware level, grabbing the microphone can take time. Even worse that timing is inconsistent across devices, workloads, etc. That leads to a bad experience when unmuting and needing to delay your commentary. The solution to this is to keep the microphone on, but mute at a sof…

Teams has a notice that it pops up if you're talking and on mute, and there's another for if you're not on mute but your mic is producing no signal (mic has it's own mute). I find those super helpful, personally.

My mic has a physical mute switch and it causes all kinds of problems with auto-leveling in videoconferences. Even with the switch left on, the mic itself rejects enough background noise to cause problems for the software that assumes half-broken built-in condenser mics.

Re: You’re muted – or are you? Videoconferencing apps may listen when mic is off

#257

Post by madeofpalk »

marricks wrote: post #117
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is this not extremely concerning for anybody who cares about privacy? Because they're not actually doing that? These researchers did everything they could think of to come up with the most concerning headline. I imagine someone, somewhere is going to make a video conferencing app that closes the audio interface every time you press mute. I also expect few people will use that option because it adds additional l…

> Because they're not actually doing that? >> Applying the classifier to the type of telemetry packets the app was sending Are you sure they’re not? The used these algorithms on telemetry packets sent from browsers. I see no reason to give companies whose revenue is built on ads the benefit of the doubt here.

Are you sure they are? That seems to be the bar we should meet when you make an accusation, right?

Besides - is it really super valuable to know that while I (thought I) was muted that I was cooking? Zoom's going to find out I... eat?

Re: You’re muted – or are you? Videoconferencing apps may listen when mic is off

#258

Post by madeofpalk »

10u152 wrote: post #234
Isthatablackgsd wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then why mute yourself? Why not? The only sound they will find is my dogs barking, doors slamming (I lives in apartment), my partner talking in his phone, all of that background noise. Why participants should be subjected to those noise and why Zoom need to know the noises? > Why do you prefer to sign over video instead of typing? Are there forms of expression that are more natural that way? We signs because Signed…

I'm fascinated by your last point. Are you saying that being deaf impedes your written communication ? As a layman I would have thought that written communication would be a godsend.

I'm not deaf and/or use sign language, but I have modes where I prefer speaking rather than written text. I would presume deaf people would be the same for their more personal and expressive communication.

Re: You’re muted – or are you? Videoconferencing apps may listen when mic is off

#259

Post by pixl97 »

ivanhoe wrote: post #243

I actually like how Zoom can warn you that you're muted if you start talking, happens to me all the time. And that obviously wouldn't be possible without keeping the access to the mic. So the light being on is OK for me. However continuing to stream the sound to the server is a huge problem, if it's really what's happening - but we can't confirm that without knowing which app is in question...

Your not muted at an operating system level, your muted at an application level when you hit the zoom mute button.

I have a switch on my headset I use to mute at a hardware level on top of the software mute button.

Re: You’re muted – or are you? Videoconferencing apps may listen when mic is off

#260

Post by jacobsenscott »

Gigachad wrote: post #248
jacobsenscott wrote: post #123

It's always been risky to trust the mute button, even before zoom etc. The rules have been the same for at least 30 years. Never send an email or other type of text message you don't want the whole world to see. Never say anything on a conference call, even when muted, you wouldn't say when not muted. Ethically any audio chat software shouldn't transmit any audio it receives when muted. The "hey, you are muted" notif…

It's been mentioned a few times in this thread, but it looks like they all have a legitimate reason for this which is making sure the unmute button is instant. Because having the first few words of your talking get through is more important than a theoretical privacy issue to most users.

I agree with that. But there is no reason for them to transmit any data over the network while "soft muted".
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