Apple unveils the best photos from the Shot on iPhone Macro Challenge • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple unveils the best photos from the Shot on iPhone Macro Challenge

#21

Post by twic » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 2:38 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #13

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #2

The trick to getting the best out of camera phones is to shore up their weaknesses with external devices. Cell phone cameras are multiple stops slower than "real" cameras (i.e. they take in 1/4 to 1/8th as much light). So you add light to the scene to shore up that weakness. Most of these pictures were probably lit very carefully with high quality lights, or else were taken in bright daylight, and the phone was proba…

All Macro photography requires extra light, it's not just anything to do specific to cell phones. That's why there are so many flash rigs designed for this. Also, the iPhone 13 camera has ridiculously fast lenses[0]: Pro 12MP camera system: Telephoto, Wide, and Ultra Wide cameras Telephoto: ƒ/2.8 aperture Wide: ƒ/1.5 aperture Ultra Wide: ƒ/1.8 aperture and 120° field of view If you search for lenses for "real" camera…

Numerical aperture alone does not tell you anything about the amount of light gathered. The product of aperture and sensor size does. Phone cameras still have much smaller sensors than DSLRs.

Your advice to learn more about photography certainly seems good.

Re: Apple unveils the best photos from the Shot on iPhone Macro Challenge

#22

Post by skhr0680 » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 2:39 PM UTC

drexlspivey wrote: post #3

Pretty crazy that you can get this kind of shots with a mobile tbh. Until very recently you would require a DSLR with a bulky specialized lens. For reference this is what a typical macro lens looks like https://images.app.goo.gl/nf5keSiugxyb2pmA6

A $20 extension tube or reversing ring will turn even any plain 50mm prime into a fine macro lens. There really isn’t an upper limit on lens hugeness or cost for people chasing that last 1% of performance.

Re: Apple unveils the best photos from the Shot on iPhone Macro Challenge

#23

Post by _ph_ » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 2:39 PM UTC

kuschku wrote: post #17

dylan604 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All Macro photography requires extra light, it's not just anything to do specific to cell phones. That's why there are so many flash rigs designed for this. Also, the iPhone 13 camera has ridiculously fast lenses[0]: Pro 12MP camera system: Telephoto, Wide, and Ultra Wide cameras Telephoto: ƒ/2.8 aperture Wide: ƒ/1.5 aperture Ultra Wide: ƒ/1.8 aperture and 120° field of view If you search for lenses for "real" camera…

> If you search for lenses for "real" cameras with those apertures and focal lengths, you'll find 4 digit price tags for each one. The aperture is relative to the diameter of the first lens element. So you can’t just compare these values directly.

Sure you can. The f-stop is the ratio of focal length to aperture diameter. A aperture of f/4 means, the aperture is one fourth of the focal length. At the same f-stop, you get the same light density on the sensor surface.

The catch is: a phone has a much smaller sensor, so at the same f-stop, across the whole sensor less light is gathered and consequently, you have a weaker signal.

Re: Apple unveils the best photos from the Shot on iPhone Macro Challenge

#24

Post by SingularCrane » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 2:40 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #13

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #2

The trick to getting the best out of camera phones is to shore up their weaknesses with external devices. Cell phone cameras are multiple stops slower than "real" cameras (i.e. they take in 1/4 to 1/8th as much light). So you add light to the scene to shore up that weakness. Most of these pictures were probably lit very carefully with high quality lights, or else were taken in bright daylight, and the phone was proba…

All Macro photography requires extra light, it's not just anything to do specific to cell phones. That's why there are so many flash rigs designed for this. Also, the iPhone 13 camera has ridiculously fast lenses[0]: Pro 12MP camera system: Telephoto, Wide, and Ultra Wide cameras Telephoto: ƒ/2.8 aperture Wide: ƒ/1.5 aperture Ultra Wide: ƒ/1.8 aperture and 120° field of view If you search for lenses for "real" camera…

ƒ stops need to be adjusted for sensor size [0]. The iPhone 13 Pro cameras all have and equivalent f stop > ƒ/8 [1]

[0]https://photographylife.com/equivalence-also-includes-apertu... [1]https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6780391159/all-apple-iphon...

Re: Apple unveils the best photos from the Shot on iPhone Macro Challenge

#25

Post by moron4hire » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 2:41 PM UTC

I had a friend who was creating a cardboard miniature of a museum exhibit he was designing and he wanted to take photos of it "on the ground floor" to give a pre-visualization of what it would look like. So he pulled out his DSLR and was woefully disappointed that all his photos came out looking like photos of miniatures, even if he got really close in.

I told him to switch to his smartphone. He'd be able to get in closer. The scale of the lens more closely matched the scale of the scene, so the relative angles between foreground and background objects would more closely match our expectations of being a full-sized scene. It came out great. Yes, we had to dump light on the thing to get the images to not be grainy. But the images had more of an "on the ground" feel.

Because of that (and my own experiences with smartphone photography), I feel like these images all fail to use the hardware effectively to do something unique.

Some others have talked about the differences in lenses and sensor sizes and all that, that makes high-quality smartphone photography so much harder than SLR photography. Yes, that is true, for the sorts of images that you would take with an SLR. But that's not the only kind of images you can take.

The popularity of the SLR is both its biggest advantage and its biggest curse. It's advantageous because there are TONS of accessories and guides and examples, etc. ad nauseum. It's a curse because it sucks all the air out of the room in regards to other types of cameras. There are so many, many different types of cameras, and they all make unique shots that you really can't replicate with the other types of cameras.

Few people have really explored what that means for smartphone cameras. It's clear that it would need to be used in ways that are unique to the device. Not just "it's the best camera you have with you, because your other camera is too heavy to always have on you." But stuff like, "because the lens is so tiny, we can squeeze shots out of tiny holes that would block a normal SLR". Stuff like, "this camera is a Star Trek tricorder connected to a global information network." I rarely ever see that.

Re: Apple unveils the best photos from the Shot on iPhone Macro Challenge

#26

Post by freedomben » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 2:42 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #13

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #2

The trick to getting the best out of camera phones is to shore up their weaknesses with external devices. Cell phone cameras are multiple stops slower than "real" cameras (i.e. they take in 1/4 to 1/8th as much light). So you add light to the scene to shore up that weakness. Most of these pictures were probably lit very carefully with high quality lights, or else were taken in bright daylight, and the phone was proba…

All Macro photography requires extra light, it's not just anything to do specific to cell phones. That's why there are so many flash rigs designed for this. Also, the iPhone 13 camera has ridiculously fast lenses[0]: Pro 12MP camera system: Telephoto, Wide, and Ultra Wide cameras Telephoto: ƒ/2.8 aperture Wide: ƒ/1.5 aperture Ultra Wide: ƒ/1.8 aperture and 120° field of view If you search for lenses for "real" camera…

Just a meta-comment, but your reply was really good until the last sentence.

> Sounds like you need some more research into macrophotography

That undermined your otherwise very factual rebuttal/clarification because it seems like at best an impossible standard (everybody could always use more research into anything), and at worst a "you don't know as much as me" veiled in professionalism/passive aggressiveness. The interpretation is up to the reader (some of whom will be charitable in their interpretation, others will not).

To be clear I'm not accusing you of "the worst" (I have no idea what was in your heart/mind and I don't presume to guess), I'm executing on a personal goal to try and help elevate conversations through useful/constructive feedback. Also I'm not presuming that this comment/feedback is useful or constructive as it may not be, but I hope that it is because that's my goal.

Re: Apple unveils the best photos from the Shot on iPhone Macro Challenge

#27

Post by jitl » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 2:50 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #14

jclardy wrote: post #11

On the leaf image: “The reason I like this so much is the obvious layering. The depth of field created with the iPhone here very clearly shows you what the focal point is, and represents a fantastic example of how good the software is at completely isolating the foreground, leaving the background blurry. A perfect example of computational depth of field.” — Peter McKinnon Is this correct? From what I've shot in macro…

At this point, I don't know how to apply any natural photography rules to camera phone results. There is so much processing going on that it is hard to even try to do things the "old" way. From the skin softening, to the pushing of the contrast/color balance/saturation, to the correcting of content replacing a person's face with a leaf type examples, etc, I really don't want to use the damn camera at all from a puris…

The leaf was actually a leaf. https://twitter.com/mitchcohen/status/1476951534160257026?s=...

Using Halide or similar with RAW substantially improves your control.

Re: Apple unveils the best photos from the Shot on iPhone Macro Challenge

#28

Post by dr_dshiv » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 2:51 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #26

dylan604 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All Macro photography requires extra light, it's not just anything to do specific to cell phones. That's why there are so many flash rigs designed for this. Also, the iPhone 13 camera has ridiculously fast lenses[0]: Pro 12MP camera system: Telephoto, Wide, and Ultra Wide cameras Telephoto: ƒ/2.8 aperture Wide: ƒ/1.5 aperture Ultra Wide: ƒ/1.8 aperture and 120° field of view If you search for lenses for "real" camera…

Just a meta-comment, but your reply was really good until the last sentence. > Sounds like you need some more research into macrophotography That undermined your otherwise very factual rebuttal/clarification because it seems like at best an impossible standard (everybody could always use more research into anything), and at worst a "you don't know as much as me" veiled in professionalism/passive aggressiveness. The i…

I support your goal! Maybe there is a way to state this in fewer words more often.

Re: Apple unveils the best photos from the Shot on iPhone Macro Challenge

#29

Post by canbus » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 2:54 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #13

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #2

The trick to getting the best out of camera phones is to shore up their weaknesses with external devices. Cell phone cameras are multiple stops slower than "real" cameras (i.e. they take in 1/4 to 1/8th as much light). So you add light to the scene to shore up that weakness. Most of these pictures were probably lit very carefully with high quality lights, or else were taken in bright daylight, and the phone was proba…

All Macro photography requires extra light, it's not just anything to do specific to cell phones. That's why there are so many flash rigs designed for this. Also, the iPhone 13 camera has ridiculously fast lenses[0]: Pro 12MP camera system: Telephoto, Wide, and Ultra Wide cameras Telephoto: ƒ/2.8 aperture Wide: ƒ/1.5 aperture Ultra Wide: ƒ/1.8 aperture and 120° field of view If you search for lenses for "real" camera…

f-stops are relative to the size of the glass + sensor. They aren't equivalent to f1.5-2.8 on an APSC or full-frame sensor.

Re: Apple unveils the best photos from the Shot on iPhone Macro Challenge

#30

Post by treerunner » Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 3:00 PM UTC

I get the feeling that iOS runs photos through a neural net filter by default. It would be nice to know exactly what is behind any given shot, both my personal images and those of a collection/competition like this. Thus armed with knowledge, only then can we truly judge for ourselves.