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We decided to move 90% of our workload from the cloud to on-prem infrastructure

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Re: We decided to move 90% of our workload from the cloud to on-prem infrastructure

#191
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With ec2 you still need to backup. You still need to validate the backups. Security it still something you need to do since an instance is still just a VM. Same with s3 buckets etc. Google for public s3 bucket "breaches." You still need to apply patches, to configure access, to expand volumes, to configure VPCs and security groups.

As far as I understand, when you use an EC2 volume, it is already backed up for you. It is not the case for an OVH dedicated server. For instance, backing up your OS image is a lot more work with a dedicated server than with an EC2 instance.

That addresses one possible set of failure scenarios. If you think that means you have a backup that is guaranteed to be accessible to you whenever you need it, you don't have a backup. If your only backup is in the same cloud provider where your primary system is, you don't have a backup, you only think you do.

Any reasonable dedicated setup will involve imaging your server, and so the OS image is not something you need to back up - if it fails you reimage. If you even store the OS image on the server at all rather than network boot.

Re: We decided to move 90% of our workload from the cloud to on-prem infrastructure

#192
post #93
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have to use more than one a day a month managing the server, you are doing something wrong. I used to manage multiple racks worth of servers on top of managing the 1k containers running on them, maintaining the (pre-kubernetes) orchestration software I had written to deploy containers to our servers, and still had time left over to spend the majority of my time on the architecture and project management of new…

Broadly speaking, managing 100 "cloud" servers is roughly the same amount of work as managing 2. Moving from managing 2 cloud servers to 100 is trivial. Moving from 1 server to 2 is an architecture problem. That architecture problem sometimes comes up when it comes to scaling too. it's the cattle vs pets problem. The last thing you want to find out is that someone ssh'ed in and installed a package that's required for…

> Broadly speaking, managing 100 "cloud" servers is roughly the same amount of work as managing 2

If this was the case, my billable hours when I was doing contracting would be about 1/10th of what they were. I lived very comfortably of troubleshooting for teams who had gotten themselves into a thorough mess with this attitude. In fact, I earned more from the teams who insisted on cloud setups because they rarely understood the operational issues with it, whereas teams who chose dedicated servers generally thought about operational concerns more.

> Moving from 1 server to 2 is an architecture problem.

Moving from 1 container to 2 is an architecture problem.

Moving from 1 server to 2 running those containers is an architecture problem with well established known solutions.

E.g. for starters you're assuming no containers. But putting the application in containers and leaving the host OS only for basic infrastructure setup is basic practice today if you're running your own servers.

Once you've set up a network boot source (tftp etc.) to network boot of an installer with a suitable setup script that you can trigger via IPMI, and a directory service and a basic orchestrator (be it Kubernetes or something else) on your network, it doesn't matter much if you have 1 server or a 100 - they come up and you put containers on them, and they look no different than a cloud service to the devs.

You're right that it's easier to take shortcuts if you have just a few servers, but it's just as easy to take shortcuts with just a few cloud instances - the number of pet containers I've seen over the years is terrifying.

> The last thing you want to find out is that someone ssh'ed in and installed a package that's required for your service to run

Which is why you don't provide ssh access to the host servers to anyone without an understanding of ops concerns, log everything, and do all updates via an automated setup of your preference, and why you regularly recycle the containers whether you run a cloud environment or dedicated servers.

The reality is that cloud systems do not at all make you immune to this - I've done year long projects to regularise AWS setups that were full of undocumented manual changes to bring everything into a terraform config for example. Often they're worse, because there are a whole lot of unobvious places to look for extra bits and pieces.

> and if you're running a big old monolith, you likely need > 1 instance for some sort of redundancy anyway.

Nobody here suggested a monolith. Nobody is suggesting you forgo redundancy. The. The point of this is that often you can put clear upper limits on the computation you will need to do for either your system as a whole or for a given subsystem, and you can guarantee that you will never need more than one server for a given part of the system.

E.g. a real example: I've worked on a system that did some processing of data about companies. We know this will always fit on a single system because the population growth of humanity is slower than the performance growth of a server and the total number of companies worldwide fits on a single system with several magnitudes to spare today, and the type of companies we were interested in is just a subset. At this point, if you architect a system like that on the basis of assuming you will need to resize, you will risk making choices that makes you far more likely to have to resize. E.g. all of the data I'm talking about can easily fit in RAM on a relatively moderate server now and forever, but the moment you start planning for partitioning the data you have added orders of magnitude of performance overhead for communication.

Properly assessing which parts of a system needs to be able to scale is at the core of architecture, and architects (or devs; it's terrifying how many places lack anyone with architecture experience) who are just planning for infinite scalability for everything is huge red flag to me. It usually means they don't understand their system. For a startup, especially, this is an existential question - preparing for unnecessary scaling has killed many startups.

Re: We decided to move 90% of our workload from the cloud to on-prem infrastructure

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost isn't gone. It's just included. Fact is, at scale, it's still cheaper to do it yourself. You just need to reach the scale it's worth paying people to do the managing.

I agree, with the caveat that at scale it's cheaper to do it well yourself. If that weren't true, then Amazon would not be making money on EC2. If you don't have sysadmins and network admins with the right experience, you can easily find yourself in a bad spot with single points of failure, servers that can't be easily replaced, oversubscribed PDUs, misconfigured switches/routers... and any number of other problems t…

If you don't have sysadmins with the right experience, there is a vast number of companies that can do this for you on a fractional basis on retainer. I was one of them.

The crossover point where cloud is more expensive is really low even if you have zero in-house experience. Exactly where it is depends on your amount of egress, as that is where AWS in particular really takes advantage of you.

Re: We decided to move 90% of our workload from the cloud to on-prem infrastructure

#194
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they are cheap. Running one's own server is also easy peasy; far too many think it is difficult, it is not. The most expensive part is the electricity.

Been a sysadmin for many years. Your right, for a few computers. Once you start getting into more than a quarter rack, you also need to start worrying about cooling (which also is lots of electricity) and usually things like ensuring the electricity stays on. (UPS, generator, etc). Don't forget to monitor and service all this stuff regularly. Once your past a few racks of equipment, you have generator tests and servi…

For on prem. Or you put it in a colo, and let someone else deal with those things, and you still pretty much the same cost savings vs. cloud - sometimes more (e.g. if you can pick a colo somewhere with cheaper electricity you can save; if you can pick one somewhere with cheaper land, you can save). Or you move to managed hosting and still bare metal, and stop worrying about the physical servers at all, at loss of some freedom, and still get around 90% of the cost savings vs. cloud.

Re: We decided to move 90% of our workload from the cloud to on-prem infrastructure

#195
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they are cheap. Running one's own server is also easy peasy; far too many think it is difficult, it is not. The most expensive part is the electricity.

It’s pretty hard to generalize this without qualifiers. Electricity can be the most expensive problem, but it requires carefully planned control of the other factors - e.g large scale with highly automated servers, network, and meat-reducing control planes to become true. Otherwise factors such as people and under-utilization can especially dominate smaller and/or less efficient facilities. Thinking thru the factors,…

The thing is, you can buy your way out of most of these considerations by either renting colo space or renting managed servers until/unless you're at a scale where there are savings to doing it yourself. This is a commodity service with margins a tiny fraction of AWS' margins. Buying services at those levels instead of doing hosting on prem still nets you 80%-90% of the savings vs. cloud. Sometimes it nets you greater savings because it makes it easier to move your workloads to cheaper locations (e.g. for a small company in London operating servers somewhere with low energy prices and low property prices is hard; colo space reachable from London in often 30%-50% above what it can be like many other places in Europe, and so you'll find managed servers from providers like Hetzner is often cheaper than on prem if your company is in a location like that)

Re: We decided to move 90% of our workload from the cloud to on-prem infrastructure

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have heard too many horror stories about Ceph (and OpenStack) to be confident about that. I certainly don't think I can truly beat S3 on cost or performance at the terabyte scale for household data - and while larger scale would give on-prem savings there are also higher expectations (in terms of availability and performance) of a multi-perabyte storage array.

Really depends on your scale. At the Terabyte to 100s of TB level, you can solve most storage problems at minimum cost with NAS or ZFS on commodity hardware. Ceph/Object storage comes into its own at the multi-petabyte and higher levels, which is not very many groups or institutions.

Solving storage at the tens of TB scale with commodity hardware is fine to a point (I have a ZFS NAS at home) but has much more ongoing maintenance burden than S3 and you need at least 2 copies for it to be a remotely comparable solution in terms of durability.

Ultimately you just have to design for what is important to you; I don't want to spend time managing this stuff any more, so keep a local NAS for my partner to access and put the bulk of my "cold" data into 2 different cloud object storage providers. Note that neither of these is actually S3; for business use I would absolutely use AWS but for personal files I can manage with the reduced capabilities and lower prices others offer.

Re: We decided to move 90% of our workload from the cloud to on-prem infrastructure

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition: long before AWS you could easily rent virtualized or dedicated servers. It took longer to provision than EC2 and all you had for storage is a fixed amount of disk, but that was absolutely sufficient for many businesses.

> In addition: long before AWS you could easily rent virtualized or dedicated servers. I disagree with this statement. Yes, you could rent, but not by the hour and based on compute power, and couldn't rent extra storage again by the hour and by the GB. Plus, you couldn't interact with these "virtual servers" through APIs. I was at AWS 2008-2014 (early days!), and I think you should consider the impact of the "on-dema…

> Yes, you could rent, but not by the hour and based on compute power, and couldn't rent extra storage again by the hour and by the GB

Right - because it's so cheap you don't need to rent by the hour.

Re: We decided to move 90% of our workload from the cloud to on-prem infrastructure

#198
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually if you have cat5 or cat6 base-T setup, you can get second hand dual port 10gbe pcie cards for 30 dollars each(!) 10GbE baseT switches are more expensive than fiber equivalent though.

In my case, cat6 cables and the added price of a 10G RJ-45 switch would have been more expensive than a 10G SPF+ switch and some twinax & fiber cables. Amazon has finished SPF-to-SPF assemblies for €10=$12. And for TP-Link, RJ-45 is like 1.5x the price of SPF+ equipment. Also, RJ-45 has a fixed minimum latency, due to it needing to support backwards-compatibility with 1G 100M etc. That means you need much larger send…

> Especially if you need multiple hops, fiber is just faster. In my tests, 0.2ms vs 3ms roundtrip time for 10G SPF vs. 10G RJ-45

ime if your unloaded latency on copper ethernet exceeds 0.2ms per hop there is some form of powersaving involved

Re: We decided to move 90% of our workload from the cloud to on-prem infrastructure

#199
post #194
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Been a sysadmin for many years. Your right, for a few computers. Once you start getting into more than a quarter rack, you also need to start worrying about cooling (which also is lots of electricity) and usually things like ensuring the electricity stays on. (UPS, generator, etc). Don't forget to monitor and service all this stuff regularly. Once your past a few racks of equipment, you have generator tests and servi…

For on prem. Or you put it in a colo, and let someone else deal with those things, and you still pretty much the same cost savings vs. cloud - sometimes more (e.g. if you can pick a colo somewhere with cheaper electricity you can save; if you can pick one somewhere with cheaper land, you can save). Or you move to managed hosting and still bare metal, and stop worrying about the physical servers at all, at loss of som…

I had a cabinet at the colo data center that was formerly Enron's data center - super thick pipe to the public Internet, in a data center built to survive nuclear war. I had 17 servers and a Federal Reserve quality hardware firewall, total cost of hardware was about $55K, the colo expense of $600 a month, and my team of two spent perhaps a day a month on maintenance. This was in contrast to $96K per month for the same setup at Amazon.

Re: We decided to move 90% of our workload from the cloud to on-prem infrastructure

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my case, cat6 cables and the added price of a 10G RJ-45 switch would have been more expensive than a 10G SPF+ switch and some twinax & fiber cables. Amazon has finished SPF-to-SPF assemblies for €10=$12. And for TP-Link, RJ-45 is like 1.5x the price of SPF+ equipment. Also, RJ-45 has a fixed minimum latency, due to it needing to support backwards-compatibility with 1G 100M etc. That means you need much larger send…

> Especially if you need multiple hops, fiber is just faster. In my tests, 0.2ms vs 3ms roundtrip time for 10G SPF vs. 10G RJ-45 ime if your unloaded latency on copper ethernet exceeds 0.2ms per hop there is some form of powersaving involved

If I remember correctly, the IEEE 802.3an line coding overhead is around 2.6ms for each time you switch between SPF+ and RJ-45. That's in line with my measurements.

SPF+ switch to OM3 fiber to SPF+ PCIe card => 0.2ms

SPF+ switch to RJ-45 cable to RJ-45 PCIe card => around 3ms

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