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Ask HN: Where can we find the unsexy jobs?

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Re: Ask HN: Where can we find the unsexy jobs?

#181

Local/regional companies outside of tier 1 cities. Before the pandemic they only hired locally and their salaries were good for the US but 1/3 to 1/2 of salaries in NYC and SF. Companies that were bootstrapped within an hour or two of Philly, Dallas, Phoenix, Denver, Virginia Beach, Jacksonville, Sacramento, you get the picture.

>Local/regional companies outside of tier 1 cities. Before the pandemic they only hired locally and their salaries were good for the US but 1/3 to 1/2 of salaries in NYC and SF. Companies that were bootstrapped within an hour or two of Philly, Dallas, Phoenix, Denver, Virginia Beach, Jacksonville, Sacramento, you get the picture. This. There are thousands of great "Tier 3" (not FAANG, not Fortune 500, but still large…

Plenty of places like that even in Tier 1 cities!

Re: Ask HN: Where can we find the unsexy jobs?

#182

Pittsburgh, PA. Every big company here - PNC, UPMC, Highmark, Fedex, Norfolk Southern, Duquesne Light - will pay you $65-70k/year at most. I met an IT director at one of these companies who told me that open source is a communist movement and so he's banned it. The dress code is very relaxed - if you stay late all week you can earn jeans Fridays! At all of these companies you will be forced to use Internet Explorer 1…

I’ve always wondered how do they find people to work there, especially young people. Do you know their profile?

Most of the younger people have degrees in Computer Information Systems

Re: Ask HN: Where can we find the unsexy jobs?

#184
post #113

They’re outside of the “tech” industry. Look at companies 200-300 on the Fortune 500; their IT group uses boring tech. Just fair warning: you seem to be under the assumption that “boring” means “straightforward and just makes sense.” It does not. If you’re looking for that… good luck! Update if you find somewhere and I’ll join you.

This might just be stereotype. As a single data point, I work at a large boring non-tech company - my team's ML runs on Kubernetes just like the cool kids do it. I've seen a lot of modern tech from other large companies too (banks, retailers etc.) - the culture and pace of development might be different but their tech stacks are very up to date. Even if some of those companies have an old mainframe still running some…

Running boring stuff definitely doesn’t preclude also running cool stuff!

Re: Ask HN: Where can we find the unsexy jobs?

#186
US-based advice only, but start by getting out of any tier 1/2 city (read: effectively any city with unreasonable cost-of-living). Landing any of these jobs will allow you to easily build your network, which can be 100% of your job referrals thereafter. Some examples:

1. Banking or insurance. Both industries provide high-paying, great-benefits, low-stress jobs (assuming you're OK with bureaucracy or can ignore it) using anything from ancient technology to modern k8s. Here are some anecdotes:

a. Friend works at a small regional bank with ~150b in assets. Their job is to maintain (amongst other less important ones) a classic ASP application which generates monthly compliance reports that get submitted to the fed. Critical work but trivially easy (if you know classic ASP!). The software runs on a single potato VM; development is done on a clone potato VM. They don't even use version control for this as it has been pending approval for 3 years... For this, they make $150k + 15% 401k match + unlimited PTO (forced 2 weeks per quarter off). Rent in that area is ~800/mo for a 2bdr.

b. College acquaintance does boring ASP.NET WebForms development for a regional insurance carrier. They cover 7 counties out of 30ish in said state. They maintain the member portal for all insured members, which runs in their local datacenter with failover a few states away. Captive audience, known size, no need for fancy scaling or load balancing as they have one active season (open enrollment), easy to prepare for. They plan on migrating from WebForms to .NET Core MVC possibly in the next 5 years. No need to rush, though! Same as above; six figure, good match, lots of PTO, similar rent.

c. Insurance for a major carrier, remote. Think Excellus/Aetna/etc. Boring ASP.NET MVC development with jQuery. The engineer has no idea what hardware they run, as despite working on production features, they never deploy any actual code - that happens 15 management levels up the chain. Said engineer has heard that, if they want a test environment, it is requested through IT and provisioned via VMWare, but has no idea if that is what production runs on. Much higher compensation than the previous two.

2. SMB consulting. SMB accounts for what, 95%+ of businesses in the US? Hit up any city anywhere and you will find 50-100 small IT/software consulting companies. There is plenty of the pie to go around if you aren't looking for exit numbers. These companies tackle everything. Custom AS400 solutions? Sure why not. Software written on a version of PHP so low you can count it on your coccyx? Sure, we migrate that. Mission critical software running on Bob's Laptop but Bob retired and nobody has his password and now the entire line is shut down until we can find a fix? Yeah, we can fix that. SMB consulting is really where it's at if you want wonky, boring stuff.

3. Education of the higher (college) variety. I did a stint at my uni for ~5 years and they are the very definition of boring. "Cutting edge" for a uni is paying Oracle a few million bucks for an SIS system that somehow runs slower than their custom built AS400 implementation that Frank from IT wrote himself 25 years ago. If you're somewhere modern, you might have some sort of VM infrastructure somewhere, but you'll be caught up in budgeting for at least a year trying to figure out what code to bill that shit to. In that time you'll find another department tossing out an old Itanium with 16GB of RAM that will absolutely just barely run your critical Spring 1.0 application tossed together by some students who haven't quite got to a web engineering course yet.

The biggest way to find these is networking. I have not had a proper interview in 25 years - every single job has been a referral over a coffee or beer that starts with, "So I've got this job, it's a little weird, but hear me out..."

Re: Ask HN: Where can we find the unsexy jobs?

#187
I would ask instead is connected to the internet or not.

Partly sarcastic rewording: in other words, do you have to track CVEs, updated / broken dependencies, zero-days, encrypt at rest, scale, linguistics, support quick turnaround / Agile, work with people that expect Javascript/Typescript, work with tooling that must run on latest Java or recent C libs, work with managers that think DDD must be followed, etc etc? Sure partly this is just software industry in general, but so many areas of concern balloon when coding for the web.

Re: Ask HN: Where can we find the unsexy jobs?

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair warning, many non-tech F500 may be less of “places running their setup out of a rack in a rando datacenter grandfathered into an affordable Edgecast plan running a LAMP stack on Debian using borg for backups?” And more of “places running near archaic .NET/JVM versions that somehow manage to combine bureaucracy with lack of organization”.

The non-tech F500 I worked at several years ago is doing everything they can to abandon .NET/Java in favor of low-code tools. Their engineers are jumping ship and they're having a hard time finding replacements.

Interesting, there was some low code at the last F500 I worked with, but mostly for very small tolls not requiring much of any business logic.

Majority of the services were older .NET framework projects with some other stuff scattered around. They had a sizable mainframe team, but we’re trying to migrate away from that platform.

Re: Ask HN: Where can we find the unsexy jobs?

#189
post #50

We do, with a slightly charitable interpretation of LAMP. We did have a brief stint with AWS, but that's thankfully over, partly because their Aurora Postgres-like cloud thing regularly would thrash to death because it doesn't have anywhere to store temporary data so a biggish join means out of memory, partly because the US law that says foreigners have no right to privacy from NSA with judicial review makes it illeg…

A managed dedicated server?

Re: Ask HN: Where can we find the unsexy jobs?

#190
post #24

The problem is you will also want job security. The answer is to look in a company that is not tech. Lots of companies that have tech in the background, where it’s needed but not driving revenue. However even in that scenario there is a risk that the job could be cut because software wants to eat everything, move everything to a service oriented architecture or automate, or do the same thing using new buzzwords. So y…

I disagree that coolness of tech has any relation at all to job security. You're implying pure tech companies will always use cool tech. But there are plenty of pure tech companies outside of major cities that primarily use PHP and Rails and Django and ASP.NET and Perl and JQuery and maybe colo servers and haven't seriously changed their stack in 5-10 years if not longer.

I was not suggesting that at all. Cool new tech has more churn actually. I was simply saying, if someone wants unsexy that would also imply they want job security.
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