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Impressions from a first-time Mac user

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Re: Impressions from a first-time Mac user

#691

Post by philsnow »

sooheon wrote: post #636
philsnow wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just wish "spaces" worked like xmonad workspaces [0], specifically that in xmonad there are some number of workspaces (9 by default) and each display is a view into _any_ of those. Macos has a checkbox "Displays have separate Spaces", and neither checked nor unchecked gives the behavior I want. Let's say I have just two monitors. That box being checked means I have spaces A1 A2 .. An and B1 B2 .. Bn, and monitor A…

Yeah this works because of indexed access. The tradeoff is you get a limited number of spaces, and you require a much larger key binding surface area. Like how indexes take memory. If your state is A1/B2 (two monitors A and B displaying spaces 1 and 2 respectively), and you're working in A1 and want to switch B2 to B3, how do you "focus" on display B before moving spaces to B3? If you just press mod-3 I assume you'd…

In my xmonad setup only one window (and thus screen) has the focus, so I would need to hit the key that switches focus to my B monitor (for me that's Mod4+e, B monitor is Mod4+q) and then Mod4+3.

True about indexed access; some other window managers have natively built in "tagged workspaces" where windows have tags and the "chat workspace" is just "all windows that have the chat tag". You can (probably? I've never used them) bind numbers to tags permanently or temporarily but you wouldn't be limited to 0-9. I never bothered trying to copy that setup in xmonad because I never used more than 5 or 7 workspaces.

Re: Impressions from a first-time Mac user

#692

Post by philsnow »

danaris wrote: post #675
philsnow wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just wish "spaces" worked like xmonad workspaces [0], specifically that in xmonad there are some number of workspaces (9 by default) and each display is a view into _any_ of those. Macos has a checkbox "Displays have separate Spaces", and neither checked nor unchecked gives the behavior I want. Let's say I have just two monitors. That box being checked means I have spaces A1 A2 .. An and B1 B2 .. Bn, and monitor A…

> But if I want everything from B2 to get displayed on monitor A, I have to create a new space An+1 and drag everything over one window at a time, like a cave man. That's...not true, though? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're after... When you activate Mission Control (not sure offhand what the default shortcut is; I have mine set to Ctrl-Up, but I might have customized it), you can drag entire spaces between mo…

Ah, I had no idea you could do that. I don't generally use the expose / mission control swipe gestures. ... Actually I just realized I haven't bothered using spaces in years (since before Catalina I think), maybe I should try again. Thanks!

Re: Impressions from a first-time Mac user

#693

Post by cycomanic »

danaris wrote: post #685
cycomanic wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a weird comment, what did people do before macs got virtual desktops (which was relatively recent compared to unix)? As a side note I remember discussion with apple users arguing that virtual desktops are not how one "should work" and are useless, now it's "you should use virtual desktops, obviously".

Well, personally, I keep a lot of windows open on my screen because I work well that way. It's similar to the "cluttered desk" method—it may look messy, but I've got everything available to me and even if you don't know where anything is, I do. But I recognize that's more of a personal style than general usage. I've been a Mac user since before the system even had proper multitasking, and the general answer to your q…

> Well, personally, I keep a lot of windows open on my screen because I work well that way. It's similar to the "cluttered desk" method—it may look messy, but I've got everything available to me and even if you don't know where anything is, I do.

> But I recognize that's more of a personal style than general usage.

> hiding an application that we're not actively using and don't need to have cluttering up the screen.

So having only used macs very sporadically what is the difference of hiding an application and minimizing a window?

> Also note that for every application up until a few years ago, and for some applications even now (and dependent on a System Preference setting), you can keep an application open on the Mac without any windows open.

So am I understanding correctly that hiding an application is essentially the same as minimizing all windows of that application (into some hidden space), I assumed from the previous posts they would just be moved to some virtual desktop? I guess that would be very nice for some applications but very annoying for others, e.g. do terminals count as the same application?

Re: Impressions from a first-time Mac user

#694

Post by NoraCodes »

alimov wrote: post #237
NoraCodes wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing inherent about having a bad window manager that makes it more power efficient; Apple could implement a better desktop environment and still have low power use.

You could also install a window manager such as rectangle or magnet if window management is a big deal for you. People switching OSs expect some things to roll over and then forget that they can google for potential solutions when things don’t work the way they expect/want.

I, like the author of this essay, was prevented from doing such things by my employer when I used a Mac for work.

I do also want to point out that such suggestions - "just install and configure [some software] which will solve your problem" - are generally rejected when I point them out to people who are having a hard time getting started with free desktops. The KDE or GNOME environment are expected to be perfect at installation, but Windows and Mac OS are afforded more leniency. It's a double standard.

Re: Impressions from a first-time Mac user

#696

Post by mikl »

We’ve seen quite a few of these “I tried a Mac” articles on here, and this is the usual for these posts: The UI conventions of macOS are quite different from Windows (and thus also from the mainstream Linux desktop environments, which mostly ape Windows).

The author thinks the macOS way is weird/annoying/wrong, without realising that this is just an emotional judgment caused by his own (in)experience rather than a problem with macOS.

The differences do chafe until your mental model adapts itself. The inverse is also true. When I happen to use Windows, I hate how I can’t drag a window anywhere near the edges without the snapping behaviour kicking in. I hate having to use Ctrl-C for copying, since that means something quite different in Unix, etc.

Re: Impressions from a first-time Mac user

#697

Post by colinmhayes »

loginatnine wrote: post #683
colinmhayes wrote: post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely disagree. Doing three finger swipe x times is just as fast if not faster than keyboard shortcuts that require you hunt down the window you're looking for.

It's objectively slower when you need to leave the keyboard with one hand to reach your touchpad. I'm thinking about a desktop environment here where 1. you might not even have a touchpad and 2. you have your both hands on the keyboard.

I mean maybe if you're using vim all the time, but most of my apps require mouse interface, so my hand is usually near the trackpad. Even when I'm using external monitors I still use the laptop keyboard and trackpad.

Re: Impressions from a first-time Mac user

#698

Post by pschastain »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #677
pschastain wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried KDE and had different but equally frustrating issues. People say you can "just fix it yourself" with Linux but that's not always feasible or worth a person's time.

But whatever frustations you have, irrespective of what you feel is the time commitment, you can actually fix in Linux. With Windows/Mac you are stuck with those frustrations as 'prescribed' by however did the UX.

We're talking "out of the box" here, and while I'm not a fan of a lot of the UI changes in macOS it still "just works". Linux doesn't i.e. the wifi on my laptop dies after sleep & the only "fix" is a reboot. I've tried everything the internet can suggest, to no avail. You say you can "actually fix it in Linux", but this isn't true; sometimes the "fix" requires a level of technical knowledge that ordinary users don't have.

Re: Impressions from a first-time Mac user

#699

Post by frosted-flakes »

kevincox wrote: post #578
SllX wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s just one of those things that if you want to, you can get used to it, but if you resist it you won’t. Like learning Vi or Emacs or BBEdit. There are tools you already learned to use, the Macintosh user interface is just another. The alternative is what? Apple changes something millions of people are already used to, their existing customer base, to satisfy switchers specifically when most can easily adapt? Or yo…

I didn't resist. Although if that was an option I may have considered. And after a year of daily use are work it was still tripping me up. It's possible for an interface to be widely used and still have sharp edges. I consider this one of macOS's. It doesn't need to change, it may well not be worth it. But at least some people will end up in the menu of the wrong application.

It's easy to run into this situation if you regularly have two windows side-by-side, and switch back-and-forth between them so that the focus could be in either window at any given moment. If you only have windows maximized (as I suspect GP does) it's not something you'll ever run into.

Re: Impressions from a first-time Mac user

#700

Post by whatever_dude »

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #2

Despite the warning, I didn't find it nearly as "ranty" as the author cautioned, and instead seemed like a fairly comprehensive and fair take on his experience. Having gone through the same thing myself several years ago, the UI aspect of it is something that I'd be curious to see how it develops for the author. I think it is not uncommon for Windows folk to find the windowing experience on macs rather painful, at le…

> rather painful, at least at first

I get that some people prefer that, but I've been on macOS daily for 10+ years and still can't find the top level OS paradigms (window switching, over reliance on mouse/extremely poor keyboard support, lack of proper "maximized" windows) anything but painful.

It might be that growing up with windows ingrained certain gestures on my mind that I can't let go, but I feel like I've decidedly given it a shot. And I still hate it.

Yes, there are workarounds, but they're workarounds that require third party applications. I expected more from the OS.

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