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The endgames of bad faith communication

consilienceproject.org

251–260 of 374 posts

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#251
With the caveat that I very much believe in civil, good faith discourse, I find that in being a formal critique of the discourse, it can nevertheless introduce the author's own ideological preferences (fine) in a way that appears neutral (not fine) or purely formal (very not fine). Here are two examples:

> Calls for good faith communication are understood at best as naive requests to calm the outrage and conflict that now runs rife in political discourse. Both ends of the political spectrum (the far left and the far right) express this view. Both sides believe that “the other side” simply can’t be trusted and therefore cannot be engaged in good faith.

This phenomenon exists, it permeates the spectrum. However, the use of the word "far" here sticks in my craw. It implies, without outright suggesting, that the center is the reasonable referee, rather than existing on a spectrum that has a history. What is center today may very well have been "far left" or "far right" 40 years ago, and its relative distance from other ideologies is irrelevant when it comes to objectivity. You have a home base. It's not just "Liberalism". No one is a contentless unit of democratic formalism.

> Given well-documented advances in the field of information warfare, there should be no illusion: today’s culture war cannot be won by any side. Mutually assured destruction is now the name of the wargame.[6] The saturation of bad faith communication throughout culture is steadily increasing, like a kind of dangerous background radiation emitted from scientifically engineered memetic weaponry. Public political discourse is quickly becoming a toxic warzone, leaching externalities into families, friendships, and identity structures.

"Culture war" is a slur for a particular kind of vitriolic discourse, but it is in fact a war over what we consider the common good. In other words--politics. This is the meat and potatoes of democracy. Liberalism says the state shouldn't have an opinion on it. The "common good" is what we all agree it is. People will disagree. So then it stands to reason that whoever has the most influence (defined as broadly as you'd like) gets to decide what the common good is. This war has high stakes.

This also smuggles in the notion that so-called information warfare has in fact warped political outcomes, which is far from being well-documented. The cause->effect sequence is not established. But let's say it is--who are the actors, and why are they doing it? Those motivations have political causes. What are they? Or is misinformation just metastasized communication, chaotic irruptions that happens over a long enough time scale?

Overall, this presents a primarily formal and cultural diagnosis of political chaos and fracture as the root cause, couched in objective language, when that is itself an ideological position. There are other analyses. One might argue that the fractured discourse is an effect, not a cause, but it's taken for granted that _formal_ misbehavior is the cause of the fractious political atmosphere, rather than... well, anything else, I guess. Substitute your favorite diagnosis here.

It's fine to have this analysis. It's not fine to pretend it's anything but an ideological, non-objective analysis. I get the impulse to try to rise above the fray. Politics is ugly, but it's ugly because the stakes are so high. Getting lost in the weeds of formal objections isn't going to fix anything. There's more going on than just procedural fuck ups.

Just my take. I might be imbuing this article with the sins of similar pieces it doesn't commit (although I don't think so), but I think this tendency is common enough that it's worth bringing up. It happens fairly often on HN. Nerds love rules. I'm no exception.

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#252
post #128

Here's an alternative ending: what if good faith communication was superior to bad faith in a systemic way ? Clues: - at a personal level: have you ever tried to put in practice "highly skilled, non-naive good faith communication" ? If you did, you've probably noted that more often than not, it doesn't make you weaker. It increases your value, your status, even your financial success. So maybe this could also be a co…

> at a personal level: have you ever tried to put in practice "highly skilled, non-naive good faith communication" ? If you did, you've probably noted that more often than not, it doesn't make you weaker. It increases your value, your status, even your financial success. Opposite experience. It leads to wasting time, especially compared to getting to the same conclusions using more effective, if less 'true', tactics.…

I would think that it scales, but that effectively practicing "highly skilled, non-naive good faith communication" is very difficult, and requires a lot of practice and honesty.

It starts with not assuming bad faith from the other side.

Trying to adapt your communication strategy depending on the profile of the other side is not really "good faith". The goal is to train _ourselves_ to look at reality in a less biased, personal way. Wanting to max out every opportunities precisely tends to distort reality.

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#253

A well-written article, especially clearly listing out the differences in the forms of communication helped make the point. But sadly, the people most prone to bad-faith communication are also probably least likely to take this criticism and improve. I have also resorted to bad-faith communications in conversations where it seems like that is the only way to be heard. Consider this example: Person A, displaying some…

But sadly, the people most prone to bad-faith communication are also probably least likely to take this criticism and improve.

It's not that people prone to this are doing so because of poor communication skills that can be improved upon, bad faith communication is by definition intentional.

Why even bother to communicate?

You probably should disregard anyone communicating in bad faith.

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Addressing opposing arguments directly is not really a feature of arguing. That kind of good faith debate is more of a special case debate. It's just not what public debate is. You see rookie politicians do it, but it's generally a mistake. A huge part of what political debate is, is dominating the frame . The frame. The key facts, alternative or otherwise. The key question being debated. Once those are established,…

I am not familiar with public debate. Before two persons start a public debate, is it a common assumption that you are going to hold your ground till the end, whatever the information provided by the opponent? There is no flow of information and I could not see this form of acts as "communication" - it seems to be more like a kind of art/show/performance.

Im not sure I was using the term correctly. What I mean is arguing or discussing matters of public discourse... politics and whatnot.

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#255
What an interesting and thoughtful article. However we will not restore good-faith communication in public spaces. It’s a 1-way process. This is why the future will be (I think) smaller and more selective communities where good-faith discourse can occur between a select sub-set of people. Probably the sort of people who do not feel threatened intellectually or otherwise in indulging in such an exchange. You are not going to educate or persuade “the mass” to change their approach now.

If you disagree with me then you are evil and on the wrong side of history and I will summon a mob against you. ;-)

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#256

A well-written article, especially clearly listing out the differences in the forms of communication helped make the point. But sadly, the people most prone to bad-faith communication are also probably least likely to take this criticism and improve. I have also resorted to bad-faith communications in conversations where it seems like that is the only way to be heard. Consider this example: Person A, displaying some…

I think the biggest problem is cult of personality. Instead of discussing actual issues we focus on elevating or disparaging people. In your example - what is the chance that 'your' politician X is always right?

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aye, the ideal goal of disussion shouldn't be to persuade in my opinion, but to explore each other's ideas with the aim of modifying and improving each position. I think the process of doing that happens to be the best way to actually get people to go along with something also.

Take an interest, not a position. A position often causes us to feel like we have to defend a position, taking an interest helps increase the likelihood that both parties remain open

That's a good way of thinking about it. Reminds me of when Alan Kay asks "Are ideas like matter? [bumps his fists together] Or are they more like light? [Overlaps his hands]" (roughly paraphrasing there).

The ability to entertain multiple, seemingly contradictory thoughts at once is a good skill I think.

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#258

What an interesting and thoughtful article. However we will not restore good-faith communication in public spaces. It’s a 1-way process. This is why the future will be (I think) smaller and more selective communities where good-faith discourse can occur between a select sub-set of people. Probably the sort of people who do not feel threatened intellectually or otherwise in indulging in such an exchange. You are not g…

No I think that’s the dangerous part. It used to be hard to hold radical fringe opinions. If you openly identified as a Klansman you would likely get shunned in most communities. Your exchange of social power for your idiotic beliefs was made open and clear.

Now it’s very easy to find a large safe space to discuss these beliefs and organize without social ridicule. And by doing so, it becomes easier for others to join in.

We have lost the power of the shun. Cancelling is the awkward and unwieldy big brother version. It’s not nearly as effective.

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#259
post #15

It would be great for people who desire good faith communication to call out people who are resorting to bad faith techniques. Especially, and most importantly, when those bad actors are of the same political stripe. It's impossible for those bad actors to hear criticism from "the enemy". Only people who share a position of almost total fundamental agreement, can maybe be heard in any criticism of how to better deal…

There are, in my opinion, two problems with that. The first is that it is very, very difficult for most people to view their own side objectively. The Russel conjugation comes to mind; "I am a freedom fighter, you are a rebel, he is a terrorist." The other problem is that often, calling out your own side's bad behavior feels like treachery. "When arguments become soldiers, to criticize your own sides' points is to st…

If you're at a point with your side where any criticism is taken as treachery, you're not really on the same side. Some even think the intention of the 100 flowers campaign was to weed out people who didn't exactly align with Mao (i.e. it was "bad faith" to begin with). Also, the campaign was open to all, not just members of the CCP (Mao's "side" in this context). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Flowers_Campaign#Debat...

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#260
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's totally normal and expected for biological research labs to have biological samples with which to do research. What is being described is beyond that, with thinly veiled suggestions of covert maliciousness sprinkled in.

As we see in Wuhan, a virus can be devastating no matter if it escapes from a research facility, a wet market or a deliberate bioweapon. That was the primary concern of Tulsi Gabbard. In Ukraine, matters are exacerbated by the fact that these research facilities, according to the left wing newspaper The Guardian, were U.S. funded: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/11/russia-biologi... Ukraine does operate bi…

To reiterate:

It's totally normal and expected for biological research labs to have biological samples with which to do research.

Ukraine, like any other country, has a vested interest in the health of its population, and so Ukraine, like many other countries, performs research on diseases that ail mankind.

Additionally, "receives US funding" is a better way to put it than "US funded", which is calculated to make it seem more like the US was the _only_ country funding them. Though one would expect that one of the largest economies in the world would help its allies research and treat their diseases.

The accusations and suppositions put forward are beyond that, with thinly veiled suggestions of covert maliciousness sprinkled in.

As for Putin, he views the existence of a free Ukraine that isn't part of Russia, as a provocation, thus the invasion, so it's pretty clear that what he viewed as provocation is not necessarily an actual provocation, but rather a pretext for further violence that he already planned anyways.

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