Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom • Hacker News Board

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#101

Post by kgtm » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 6:55 PM UTC

ajkessler wrote: post #93

kgtm wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't go into details about why each solution you present is not optimal, because I have a better proposal. Make LSD and other drugs of similar effect legal. Have the government regulate the distribution. Put an exorbitant price tag on them and disallow buying-in-bulk. Make me sign that I am wholly responsible for what happens to me by using them (even though nothing adverse as lung cancer will, I'm sure). Give me…

This doesn't prevent, but in fact encourages, the black market. Either pay the gov $1000 or the guy in the van $5 (whatever market price is). You already see this with cigarettes in the US, where the price difference between taxed and illegally sold (untaxed) cigarettes are much, much smaller. Additionally, you'd likely create a black market for whatever piece of paper says the LSD is legal.

I never said I wanted to prevent the black market. I merely stated a scheme under which I would be comfortable acquiring such substances, and the trade-offs likely to be involved (high prices). As for the piece of paper, it was just a figure of speech; passing a law amounts to the same effect.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#102

Post by felipemnoa » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 6:55 PM UTC

ldh wrote: post #60

felipemnoa wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a logical fallacy.

Which fallacy?

>>A greater percentage of water drinks drown than marijuana/lsd/mushroom users die from marijuana/etc usage

Is a fallacy or a false argument in the sense that you can say that about pretty much anything.

-Eat just meat for a couple of weeks and it will kill you

-Eat just pasta and it will make you sick

-cars kill more people than X

-etc. etc.

He is not providing a real argument.

Is like me telling you that aluminum causes memory problems and you coming back and telling me that more people die from cars. What does that have to do with the first comment?

I was just providing an opinion about better not use illegal drugs because of all the physical and legal consequences they can have. Not sure what all the outrage is about and how can some people equate that with drinking water or alcohol, or even greed.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#103

Post by derleth » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 7:08 PM UTC

VMG wrote: post #25

omarchowdhury wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is connected. It is understandable to discard insight on psychedelics as being 'brain-addled delusion' if the materialistic supposition is already implanted. Furthermore, such insight is usually overwhelming with assimilation into baseline consciousness being difficult. However, the same mystical states have been achieved by many without the use of drugs - a gradual onset over a lifetime of discipline.

downvoted for irrational mysticism

Why is Hacker News so closed-mindedly pro-psychedelic? Do none of you think there is even a debate to be had here?

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#104

Post by felipemnoa » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 7:09 PM UTC

Synaesthesia wrote: post #51

felipemnoa wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because is better to be safe than sorry? The fact is that there are a lot of people whose life is very publicly destroyed by drugs.

In terms of safety, alcohol and tabacco rank worse than illegal substances like Marijuana, LSD, MDMA and other illegal drugs.

Maybe so, but alcohol and tobacco do no land you in jail if caught.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#105

Post by Alex3917 » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 7:15 PM UTC

jessriedel wrote: post #91

Alex3917 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Anyone got interesting, concrete data to share rather than anecdotes about Steve Jobs?" Here are all of the Johns Hopkins studies on psilocybin: http://csp.org/psilocybin/ You might also be interested in going to Horizons if you're going to be in NYC this coming weekend: http://www.horizonsnyc.org It's all of the talks on the latest scientific research on psychedelics for therapeutic use. You can also watch many of…

All the studies I've seen either have to do with safety, perceived benefit (self-evaluated), or effect on attitude (openness) as measured by a survey. Do you know of any studies which identify an objectively measurable positive benefit to the subjets? For example: decreased risk of suicide, decreased risk of divorce, increased likelihood of solving a long-standing problem, increased success at work, etc.

"Do you know of any studies which identify an objectively measurable positive benefit to the subjets?"

Deciding whether something is objectively measurable or not has thousands of years worth of philosophical baggage, so I can't really say whether any of these will meet your definition, but for what it's worth:

- Using LSD to treat alcoholism

- Using ibogaine to treat opiate addiction: http://vimeo.com/20118700

- Using psilocybin to treat smoking: http://vimeo.com/15913255

- Self-evaluated life quality in psychedelic drug users vs. non-users: http://www.maps.org/videos/source4/video12.html

- Using MDMA for PTSD: http://www.oprah.com/health/PTSD-and-MDMA-Therapy-Medical-Us...

- Using LSD / Psilocybin for cluster headaches: http://vimeo.com/10918637

- Using LSD for solving long-standing problems. (James Fadiman discusses this in his book that I linked to, and I think also here: http://www.maps.org/videos/source4/video5.html.)

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#106

Post by andrewparker » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 7:48 PM UTC

For anyone who is interested in the article, I strongly recommend reading "What the Dormouse Said" by John Markoff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Dormouse_Said

It's about how the counter-culture attitude of the 60s helped inspire the PC wave of innovation. Drug use is one of the core topics, but it is not romanticized. The book is very "matter of fact" in its analysis of how drugs were involved in the evolution of the PC.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#107

Post by elemenohpee » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 7:51 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #8

I've taken LSD and 'shrooms a few times, and while I can understand what Jobs is saying, I think he was wrong. I had mystical experiences where I thought I understood that the whole world was connected together, and I was connected to the world, and other deep insights. I think this was just brain-addled delusion, not any insight into how things really are. That said, I fully support these things being legal, and (fo…

> I had mystical experiences where I thought I understood that the whole world was connected together, and I was connected to the world, and other deep insights. I think this was just brain-addled delusion, not any insight into how things really are.

Hasn't this view been borne out by modern science? The fact that we are made of the same stuff as the dirt and the stars, and that there really is no dividing line between us and the universe, and by extension each other is, I think, a supremely important revelation. I'm curious as to why you dismissed this as a delusion?

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#108

Post by SkyMarshal » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 7:58 PM UTC

wheels wrote: post #15

Incidentally, despite the oft quoted, "Bill Gates would be a broader guy if he had dropped acid once", Bill Gates basically did admit to taking LSD in a 1994 interview: PLAYBOY: Ever take LSD? GATES: My errant youth ended a long time ago. PLAYBOY: What does that mean? GATES: That means there were things I did under the age of 25 that I ended up not doing subsequently. PLAYBOY: One LSD story involved you staring at a…

I've never done LSD but the stories I hear from people I have are sometimes hillarious.

I heard one where a guy thought he was a glass of orange juice, and was terrified of laying down b/c he was afraid he'd pour himself out.

Another was a bit less creative but no less scary - a giant spider eating his leg from the foot up.

I have to say, neither is particularly something I want to experience...

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#109

Post by Alex3917 » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 8:00 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #77

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #23

I will never understand how HN manages to be so (maybe relatively) anti-drug, even in a latent fashion on this topic. I do, not, understand this sentiment. For all of the things that HN does not take at face value, there is a blind acceptance of the "drugs are evil" viewpoint espoused (often exclusively in the face of their own studies, dozens of times, over 20 years ) by the United States Government. Downvote within…

It seems plain to me that drug opinion on HN ranges from "don't care" to "aggressively advocating legalization". Are you sure you're not just spoiling for a fight? (It's ok; we all get bored sometimes). Your comment captures nicely one of the things I hate most about out-of-place political stories on HN. There isn't enough diversity of opinion here to have a real debate, so basically what we get is a competition of w…

"He's using the tragic death of a public figure as an excuse to suck all the oxygen out of the room and replace it with something else."

The problem is that the fact that Steve Jobs even is a public figure is due mostly to random luck, that is he wasn't one of the people who got sent to prison for 10+ years for possession or whatever.

Re: Steve Jobs, LSD and Drug Freedom

#110

Post by JonnieCache » Tue, Oct 11, 2011, 8:02 PM UTC

SkyMarshal wrote: post #108

wheels wrote: post #15

Incidentally, despite the oft quoted, "Bill Gates would be a broader guy if he had dropped acid once", Bill Gates basically did admit to taking LSD in a 1994 interview: PLAYBOY: Ever take LSD? GATES: My errant youth ended a long time ago. PLAYBOY: What does that mean? GATES: That means there were things I did under the age of 25 that I ended up not doing subsequently. PLAYBOY: One LSD story involved you staring at a…

I've never done LSD but the stories I hear from people I have are sometimes hillarious. I heard one where a guy thought he was a glass of orange juice, and was terrified of laying down b/c he was afraid he'd pour himself out. Another was a bit less creative but no less scary - a giant spider eating his leg from the foot up. I have to say, neither is particularly something I want to experience...

>I heard one where a guy thought he was a glass of orange juice, and was terrified of laying down b/c he was afraid he'd pour himself out.

That is one of the original pieces of anti-LSD mythology, along with "I heard about this guy who thought he could fly, so he jumped off a building." The story you quote usually ends with, "and then he fell over by accident and he died of a heart attack."

This is why you are being downvoted.