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Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

theatlantic.com

301–310 of 504 posts

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#301
post #11

Haidt makes an excellent observation about the mid-20th century unity being an aberration due to the technology of the time: > Gurri is no fan of elites or of centralized authority, but he notes a constructive feature of the pre-digital era: a single “mass audience,” all consuming the same content, as if they were all looking into the same gigantic mirror at the reflection of their own society. Something I think we o…

> a single “mass audience,” all consuming the same content, as if they were all looking into the same gigantic mirror at the reflection of their own society.

And yet, it seems society has never been so much polarized. Seems a bit like the "hipster effect"

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#302
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is reducing the federal government to that size not committing to the long term disintegration of our country? When you have states passing laws making it illegal for you to do something in another state that is perfectly legal within that second state, ala the abortion laws places like Idaho are trying to pass, how is the a cohesive nation?

You can frame it the same way too as states making things legal that are illegal in other states. But that's kind of the whole point of states, is for them to be different. It's not actually disintegrating the nation, it's providing choices. The problem comes when states use the federal government to attempt to override other states. If each state can just do their own thing and as a country we focus on prosperity, m…

I’m not talking about the states making things differently legal within their borders. I’m taking about things like the laws that make it illegal for you to get an abortion in another state where abortion is legal. It’s one state infringing on the rights of another state unless you view people as citizens of their states and not the country as a whole. That’s why I am asking how it isn’t breaking up a cohesive nation.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Social media allows us to highlight and amplify the information about our disagreements. In theory. In practice most people are too busy living their lifes and going through their struggles to voice anything. Leaving these platforms to be flooded by a vocal minority or worse, actors with an agenda. This in turn provides a warped vision of reality to the 99% of non contributing 'listeners'.

Isn't that a description of traditional media? Doesn't seem this is a fundamental change that caused the current divide. It's something deeper.

Traditional media would not be flooded with extreme right or extreme left, or conspiracy theories without any evidence backing.

The current Turner/Murdoch media in the US is definitely not my understanding of 'traditional' journalism of the likes of Associated Press, Agence France-Presse, Reuters.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#304

He's putting the cart before the horse. The problem is the stupid bankrupt politics in the USA. Social media is just gasoline being thrown onto the fire, with the billionaire class pumping as much gas into it as they can. I think there's one throwaway paragraph in the middle of the whole article that addresses the political shift in the 90s that led us to where we are. That should have been front and center. The USA…

France, Canada, Britain and many other countries in the West that have everything you listed are also showing the same signs of division, all emerging in the same timeframe described by Haidt.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#305

A great article which is ruined by politicising it as a "rightwing problem". Everything the author identifies applies equally to rhetoric from the left, as anyone who has spent time on the r/politics section of Reddit or Twitter will recognize.

> Everything the author identifies applies equally to rhetoric from the lef

Looking from the outside (Europe), I'm sorry, but I just don't see this at all.

A big example: Republicans have repeatedly claimed for over a decade now that the Democrats run an international child sex trafficking network

I am in no way a fan of Hillary Clinton, but the right has spent almost forty years systematically lying about her, claiming she's a criminal, and when the whole "Democrats rape children" thing was invented, they dropped her into that.

Tell me - what claim from the left is comparable to this horrific lie?

And I could go on, and on, and on. Republicans claim that the climate change is a hoax, FFS! (I live in the Netherlands, so this is personal to me.)

Your claim "both sides do it" is false and empty. My guess is that you are in fact an American right-winger - is this true?

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If these “wedge issues” are manufactured and inconsequential, I’m sure democrats would be happy to go along with the republican positions on abortion, etc., these issues so we can focus on the important economic issues, right? > Case in point- gun laws, abortions, gay marriage are simply not a focus of right wing parties in India. I said social and cultural issues are important to people—the specific social and cultu…

Careful now, you’ve read too many real books to be commenting on HN. What did you study?

What are these books?

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#307
As Roger Waters said:

They repeated every test

They checked out all the data on their lists

And then, the alien anthropologists

Admitted they were still perplexed

But on eliminating every other reason

For our sad demise

They logged the only explanation left

This species has amused itself to death

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can absolutely have voluntary collectivism where you simply do not do things unless everyone agrees upon them. This works best in small or medium sized groups and probably does not work for large groups, but your post reads like you think collectivism always necessitates violence and that simply isn’t true.

And what do you do if someone disagrees with the crowd? How do you force him without coercieon? (hint those two words are synonyms).

While the “ism” suggests an ideology rather than an attribute of a real world society, what you describe is the essential balance every society needs to strike between the group and the individuals, and so you find jail and fines as coercion across a wide variety of countries and systems.

As a native English speaker myself, I urge you to get into etymology and understand socius and collective and community and thereby inoculate yourself against a weird strain of anti logic parading as American political discourse and often used by folks who know better sponsored by the federalist society and Cato institute and such… typically for lowbrow crowd appeal.

No society, by definition, is free from a collective aspect.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can absolutely have voluntary collectivism where you simply do not do things unless everyone agrees upon them. This works best in small or medium sized groups and probably does not work for large groups, but your post reads like you think collectivism always necessitates violence and that simply isn’t true.

And what do you do if someone disagrees with the crowd? How do you force him without coercieon? (hint those two words are synonyms).

Another hint: coercion is not necessarily direct violence.

Capitalism is almost completely coercive and controlling, but direct violence is mostly reserved for minorities and for war adventures in distant countries.

At home it's coercive through financial violence (especially income restriction and forced debt), extreme economic apartheid, and overt and covert behaviour modification narratives in the various media.

"The crowd" is very much not in charge of any of this, but is persuaded that it is.

Arguably all of this is better than a more overtly dictatorial system where any form of dissent attracts direct violence. But it's not necessarily less coercive - just less obvious. And more efficient.

You can scale that back and have collective systems which rely on a tradition of consensus. It's not even all that unusual on a smaller scale. Teams/groups make decisions, some people disagree, but when consensus is reached everyone works towards the same goals even if they have misgivings.

This works if you allow feedback, goal monitoring, and resets so the system is responsive and self-correcting. But it also requires all participants to be rational, reasonably intelligent, non-sociopathic, and capable of adult decision making.

Which is why it doesn't work at scale. Only about half the population - at best - has those abilities, and as soon as your group includes at least one sociopath they will destroy that dynamic and replace it with a toxic one which relies more on coercion than consensus.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#310
I’m going to propose something much simpler:

Modern life has been on a trajectory for this tribalist bubble warfare since we outgrew small village life. The car and mobility for employment put the icing on the cake.

If we want social cohesion, design for it, in real life.

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