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Europe is investing heavily in trains

nytimes.com

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Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#481

Post by jseban »

jollybean wrote: post #475
jseban wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the only use case where trains make sense to me, is really heavy cargo, where the lower friction of the wheels make it more efficient. That's a use case where both flying and trucks will be at a disadvantage. Transporting people in trains doesn't really make sense to me. You can fly if you need to go fast, take a bus if you have time, or drive a car if you want flexibility.

Where there is enough population density and 'right of way' for trains, trains almost always make sense. Flying is better for NYC -> Colorado - LA but trains are better for NY -> DC corridor, and frankly, probably all the way down to Florida. There is the issue of 'downtown' and 'walkable cities'. If you arrive in Baltimore near an airport, you have to rent a car. In European cities, you hop on the Subway to the Hote…

> Where there is enough population density and 'right of way' for trains, trains almost always make sense.

You will come really close to that if you build a road that has the same level of right of way, and drive buses. The benefit of (expensive) bridges and tunnels are not unique for trains. Some of the subway trains in Paris run on rubber tires.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#482

Post by aembleton »

tijl wrote: post #462
aembleton wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised that the EU hasn't passed a directive to set a tax rate for aviation fuel for flights between EU countries. I guess planes might just fill up their tanks in non EU countries and then carry the extra load around and be more polluting.

But that's exactly what hguant explains. Flights between EU countries are international flights and are therefore tax exempt under the Chicago Convention.

> barring a specific agreement between those two nations.

If every country in the EU agreed that every other country in the EU could impose tariffs on flights between them, then this should work.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#483

Post by alkonaut »

xyzzyz wrote: post #429
simonsarris wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is mentioned near the end of the article but the reason those short domestic flights are so cheap in Europe is that commercial kerosene is currently tax exempt in every single EU member state. Jet fuel is cheaper per gallon in the EU than it is in the USA! (or was, before the current war) In typically tax-happy Europe this always struck me as odd, agree it is sad when you find out an airplane ticket is cheaper t…

Okay, let's do the math. Consider a 2 hour flight, say Madrid -> Paris. A round trip is something like 140 eur. Boeing 737-800 burns something like 3000 liters of jet fuel/hour, and will typically carry something like 150 passengers. That's 40 liters per person. Jet fuel is really pricey now, something like 80 cents/liter. This means that fuel costs something like 30 eur per flight per passenger, so 60 eur in a round…

I pay more than 100% in petrol taxes when I fill my car at $2.50/liter.

Also, CDG-MAD flight isn't really between Paris and Madrid but between CDG and MAD, which have some additional costs associated with transfers (assuming you are actually going beteween the city centers). So to be competitive a train ride might not need to have the flight price exactly, but can be a bot more expensive.

But a sensible policy would be that when trains are more expensive, taxes should be put on flying until they aren't (taxes directed to trains through subsidies, infrastructure investment and so on).

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#484

Post by pg314 »

jseban wrote: post #479
pg314 wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the Brussels Institute of Statistics and Analysis [1], in 2017, 34% of all commuters in Brussels commuted by train versus 36.2% by car. It might not make sense to you, but it does to other people. [1] page 30 of https://bisa.brussels/sites/default/files/publication/docume...

The train itself has to be heavier than the load just to stay on the tracks. It would only make sense if you already have an established cargo route, and you can in addition also reuse a large part of that track for people transport.

> The train itself has to be heavier than the load just to stay on the tracks.

Why would that be? A typical 110 ton capacity freight train car weighs 33 tons unloaded. It has no problems staying on the tracks.

Besides both buses and planes typically weigh much more than their freight (and planes need to lift all that weight 10km vertically), so I fail to see how that is an argument against trains.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#485

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

bauruine wrote: post #368
novembermike wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European trains don't really do that much freight though. They tend to be optimized to carry people. America is actually way ahead of Europe in terms of rail freight, something like 10x depending on the measurement.

Back in 1996 Switzerland and Germany signed a non-binding agreement (Vertrag von Lugano) to increase the capacity for freight trains. Now in 2022 the Swiss part [0] with two 34km and 57km long tunnels through the Alps is basically finished meanwhile the German part is expected to be completed in 2042 [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRLA [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlsruhe%E2%80%93Basel_high-s...

Same game on the other end. Compare number of tracks:

[·] https://goo.gl/maps/gnrqGEdz3H7vz8V99

Context:

[·] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betuweroute

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#486

Post by nephanth »

In France, the train is just so much more convenient, provided one of your stops is Paris.

Take Paris-Lyon for example - by train : 1. depart from Paris Gare de Lyon (inside the city), arrive at Lyon perrache (inside the city). 10€ to 30€ (ouigo), ~3h. 2. recommended arrival time : 30min early

- by plane: 1. go from Paris to ORY (~40min, ~10€ in orlyval/orlybus or RER) 2. recommended arrival time : 2h early 3. 1h of flight, cheapest 50€, most prices are around 100€ 4. Get from Lyon airport to the city whith rhonexpress, 15€, 30min

Result : even though the flight time is a bit shorter, the plane trip is actually way longer and way more expensive

The only time when plane is more convenient than train is when you want to travel between two cities that are not linked by rail, and the correspondance in Paris is too much of a detour, such as bordeaux-nice

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#487

Post by locallost »

gandalfian wrote: post #221

Here in the UK the train to London is five hours and £75. The coach is £15 and eight hours. Four people in a car perhaps £10 a head. Trains are nicer but there is something annoyingly mysterious about the ecomomcs of it all.

You are severely underestimating the cost of the car ride. Fuel is not the only cost, but even this feels low. Five hours by train has to be at least 500km which will be depending on the car on average I guess 35 liters of gas, which at today's prices is more like 60 pounds.

But a car costs a couple pounds every day for registration, insurance, regular maintenance, new parts (tires etc). If you go to London and spend 10 days there, this is easily 50-100 pounds even if it's just parked and doing nothing. Now also add possible parking costs and emergency costs for maintenance if the car breaks down -- a friend of mine went with his car to the seaside with kids a couple years ago, and the car broke down midway. It cost him 2.5k for his local shop to pick it up and repair. The shop on the spot even gave him a 4k quote.

And of course you have the upfront investment for the actual car which is a few thousand for a used car or at least 15 thousand for a new car these days.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#488

Post by mpol »

locallost wrote: post #426

After reading some of the comments on the price of train tickets, and while it's true trains are on paper more expensive, there are some things to consider: * prices and conditions vary between countries. For example, in Germany your children can travel for free until 14, but apparently this is not universal and it can be a big difference for families * in a lot of countries you can pay for discount cards and get 25/…

One other thing that is easily forgotten, trains are much safer and feel safer.

In road traffic there are maybe 50 deaths per year per million people (wild guess, but not that far off). With trains in Europe, it's not even 1 per year per million. I don't have to think about all the "almost-accidents" that are part of road traffic. This does come with a price, but buying a newer and safer car also comes with a price.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#489

Post by jhugo »

DocTomoe wrote: post #464
xyzzyz wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, let's do the math. Consider a 2 hour flight, say Madrid -> Paris. A round trip is something like 140 eur. Boeing 737-800 burns something like 3000 liters of jet fuel/hour, and will typically carry something like 150 passengers. That's 40 liters per person. Jet fuel is really pricey now, something like 80 cents/liter. This means that fuel costs something like 30 eur per flight per passenger, so 60 eur in a round…

> Would it make Madrid - Paris train route competitive? No, not at all. Just to provide some data points: Madrid-Paris by train takes about 17-20 hours and costs between 261 and 350 Euros. By plane, it takes about two and a half hours and costs (in your example) around 170 Euros. Also take into account that for many international travellers, the time saved aspect is more relevant than the money saved aspect, as lifet…

Sleeper trains change the calculus a little, because you can sleep as you travel. While they're a foreign concept to many people, they are reasonably popular in Europe — not just among railfans — and in many parts of Asia are a very typical mode of transport. Going to sleep in one city centre and waking up in another is often far more convenient than the air travel alternative, especially for the many cities where there is no fast+convenient public transport to the airport.

Furthermore, to make a fair comparison you need to:

- Include all the costs of the air ticket in the price comparison, in particular transport to and from the airports. Public transport is sometimes not available, or may not be convenient (e.g. with luggage or small children), and due to the large distance to many airports taxis can be very expensive

- Include all of the time involved in the flight — depending on the cities involved, your two and half hour flight could easily be 5+ hours city-centre-to-city-centre once local transport, check-in deadline, time padding for uncertainties etc is considered.

- Compare to a rail ticket for a specific train at a specific time, which is usually cheaper. The more expensive rail tickets often give you the option of multiple trains on a given day, which is a level of flexibility no air ticket gives you.

If we want to really make it a fair comparison you should also probably compare the price to the business class flight ticket, considering that even the lowest class of train ticket gives you a comparable level of comfort to a typical intra-Europe business class airplane seat.

If you need to get there as quickly as possible, the airplane is going to win on most (but not all) routes. But for many people, having fewer steps in the journey and being able to comfortably work during the journey can actually make the longer train option more convenient.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#490

Post by xyzzyz »

pg314 wrote: post #468
DocTomoe wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would it make Madrid - Paris train route competitive? No, not at all. Just to provide some data points: Madrid-Paris by train takes about 17-20 hours and costs between 261 and 350 Euros. By plane, it takes about two and a half hours and costs (in your example) around 170 Euros. Also take into account that for many international travellers, the time saved aspect is more relevant than the money saved aspect, as lifet…

You can find a ticket from Madrid to Paris taking 10.5 hours for 226 EUR.

And you can find round trip tickets Madrid-Paris on RyanAir for 50 eur, and for 100 eur on regular airlines. In my comment I took 140 eur as typical price of airfare. Typical cost of rail is something closer to 250 eur.

This also ignores the speed: if the prices were the other way around, with airfare twice as expensive as rail, I expect most people would still take the plane.

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