Earlier quoted context omitted.
How dare you argue against the "electrification is too expensive to do in the US!" crowd with facts like "most of the rest of the world does it"! In the US, the east coast line is electrified from Boston to DC (possibly further? Can't remember.)
In total less than 2,000 miles of track are electrified out of 140,000 miles of track [1]. Boston to DC is electrified only on a specific passenger rail line (along with one route to Philadelphia). The only other electric rail lines are short coal-haulers moving coal from mines to coal power plants. Europe's lines are economical to electrify because of greater density. Electrifying a rail line costs the same regardle…
Europe is investing heavily in trains
441–450 of 654 posts
Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains
#442Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're saying this like it's a bad thing, why? Why should we tax common goods and services to the point they become luxuries only some people can afford?
Because of the externalities of flying, especially when compared to (electric) trains?
Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains
#443Why is this important? Rail operates on the basis of an extremely high investment (rail) offset by the notion that you earn that back over decades / centuries via fuel savings. But rails has a high up front investment cost (many tons of steel, land disputes, decade+ of planning and construction), high maintenance cost (upkeep & maintenance). So, the fuel savings are really important.
With the mass deployment of electrical vehicles (cars, buses, trucks, ships, and soon small airplanes) that stops being feasible. Electricity is cheap and dropping in price and generally trending towards dirty cheap in roughly the time it will take to build a meaningful amount of new rail. Also, a lot of these vehicles will eventually become autonomous which knocks out a secondary source of cost: the driver.
That creates a formidable competitor to rail that can utilize roads, water ways, air ways, etc. and uses energy that is harvested at more or less constant cost from wind, geo thermal, solar, or nuclear.
That knocks the whole premise away under mass transit solutions that amortize the extreme cost of fuel (and drivers) by just moving a lot of stuff with one enormous vehicle (an airbus 380, a train carrying many tonnes of cargo or thousands of passengers, huge ships, etc.). These huge vehicles are only economical when the fuel savings matter. They won't.
What if you could route individual containers via light, self driving, battery electrical vehicles? Production cost of about 100-200K$ each, probably cheaper if you mass produce them. Good for a million mile+ operational life time. Can go anywhere you want it to go. Does about 1-2 miles per KWH at a cost of less than 0.005$/kwh depending on weight/size. The numbers are far better with people carriers because we are talking lighter, cheaper, and more efficient vehicles.
That's our future. Rail does not make sense in that future. If you have a train that transports 100 containers, we're talking 5$/kwh worth of electricity every mile or so. Electrical trains would have similar or a bit better fuel cost of course but be very expensive to build and operate due to the need for rails and heavy duty machinery on the rails. But it would be meaningless because electricity is so cheap. The vehicle purchase cost of hundreds of electrical trucks would be negligible compared to that and maintaining and constructing roads is also a lot cheaper. The fuel cost difference would no longer justify spending many billions on both infrastructure, vehicles, and maintenance for rails. No chance in hell to earn any of that back with fuel savings when the price of that drops through the floor.
Current prices for the most competitive solar bids are hovering around 0.012$/kwh. They are not going to stay there. 0.005 is only a very modest improvement. Long term we might be looking at 0.001 or even less. That's only 1 order of magnitude of improvement. It's the conservative scenario. Manufacturing cost is basically a function of how cheap it is to manufacture and install panels, storage, cables, etc. Ironically, a big factor in that cost are energy and labor. So, having cheaper ways to generate energy will make making cheap energy cheaper. Add robots to the mix and you drop the labor cost as well. Moving stuff around is going to be very cheap.
Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains
#444Earlier quoted context omitted.
Trains are more efficient, but flights only do the most traveled routes generally, which is why they're usually booked out afaik. The same can't be said about trains usually, as they're also doing the outlying routes It makes flying seem more competitive then it actually is, as trains usually aren't booked relative how much your transportation cost and instead the overall cost to also enable these almost empty routin…
Why don't the trains just stop doing the empty runs on the outlying routes, then?
Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains
#445Earlier quoted context omitted.
A plane doesn't have to build and maintain km of tracks, it just uses airport facilities (subsidised usually) and untaxed kerosene. A high speed train can only go to a few destination, the tracks can hardly be repaid
A lot of time those tracks are already paid for by freight trains. The track tax is just what governments choose to do - especially since cargo trucks barely pay any road access tax.
Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains
#446Earlier quoted context omitted.
RENFE (national railroad company) had no competitors until very recently, they opened the market just months ago. I am hopeful the new high speed companies (i.e Ouigo) makes the market much more competitive and lowers pricing in all tiers. Still, for same price and roughly same time, I always prefer using the train to the planes.
This is happening in France, too. I'm not too optimistic on how this will turn out. What we've seen here is TrenItalia starting to serve one line, Paris-Lyon (and then on to Milan). The issue is that this is, by far, the most profitable train line in France. If competitors only get in on the profitable lines and leave the others to the national company, it will probably not end well. Because it's my understanding tha…
https://ec.europa.eu/competition/general/liberalisation_en.h...
Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains
#447Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is mentioned near the end of the article but the reason those short domestic flights are so cheap in Europe is that commercial kerosene is currently tax exempt in every single EU member state. Jet fuel is cheaper per gallon in the EU than it is in the USA! (or was, before the current war) In typically tax-happy Europe this always struck me as odd, agree it is sad when you find out an airplane ticket is cheaper t…
Okay, let's do the math. Consider a 2 hour flight, say Madrid -> Paris. A round trip is something like 140 eur. Boeing 737-800 burns something like 3000 liters of jet fuel/hour, and will typically carry something like 150 passengers. That's 40 liters per person. Jet fuel is really pricey now, something like 80 cents/liter. This means that fuel costs something like 30 eur per flight per passenger, so 60 eur in a round…
If you buy a train ticket in advance, you definitely are in that price scale. I looked up train rides one month in advance [2] and a ride from Madrid to Spain is now 175€ to 210€, right in the range of the train ride.
But hopefully, Europe-wide CO2 taxes will start to price in externalities and remove the finger from the scale in favor of flights.
[1] https://taxfoundation.org/gas-taxes-in-europe/ [2] https://www.raileurope.com/en/journey/madrid-paris-14skjpm
Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains
#448Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think: ICE = Inter-City Express (train)
(As opposed to Internal Combustion Engines, which may have caused the confusion)
Then again, our fastest train does 200 kph, so we only have "old shitcans". I reckon this is because we're 12% the population of Germany on 126% the area. It's not worth the investment with high speed rail.
Then again these numbers are a bit exaggerated, you could essentially cut Sweden in into 2 pieces just above Stockholm and you'd end up with one relatively densely populated area and something that would more or less resemble Alaska in population.
What's great about the north is it is our own little Alaska in the sense that we have a metric shitload of iron ore so pure you can put it straight to the furnace, keeps us southerners afloat for sure.
Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains
#449Earlier quoted context omitted.
A short answer for Germany would be: the system is operating at its absolute limits. The results are employee burnout and bad reliability. An example: a few years ago, they introduced a new way to reduce delays caused by trains arriving so late at their destination that they cannot make their scheduled return trip. This is the so-called "Pofalla-Turn", named after the manager who supported it: if a train has a delay…
> the train will often just stop at some station and the passengers are told "the train ends here". They then have to figure out their journey using alternative trains. In the Czech Republic, what would happen in that case would be that the railway company would shuttle the passengers to their destination using buses. This doesn't happen in Germany?
Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains
#450Earlier quoted context omitted.
I disagree: Travel time from Berlin to Munich went down from 6 hours to about 4 hours. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkehrsprojekt_Deutsche_Einhe... That is a massive change. Subjectively, how a train trip feels on that route went from "quite exhausting in the end" to "oh I just opened my laptop, couldn't even finish what I had started".
Note that it's still four hours compared to one for a flight - and flights are still cheaper. Even if we assume two hours for arrival, boarding and an hour for local transportation in Berlin, flight would still win on price. (I just checked for "Munich to Berlin next monday": 120€ cheapest for trains unless I want to sleep in them, 105€ for a flight, with more choice of time.)