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Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

theatlantic.com

201–210 of 504 posts

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#201
post #193
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fox News came about in 1996. I remember before that, there was just Rush and co, and they were fringe on the radio. Fox when mainstream in the early 2000s and just snowballed slowly ever since. There was never a moment where extreme polarization just suddenly appeared. Rush in the early 1990s was saying f-nut stuff back then, too.

I do think the internet was required for the final acceleration into madness. In general commercial media is seeking ad dollars, even though its saying some crazy things it still has some limits. In addition, it has a limited number of guests and they tend to get limited to 'interesting' individuals. The internet is not limited in such a fashion and the echo chambers and feedback loops are faster.

Well yeah, now you can't turn it off

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#202
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The level of political polarization now, while high, is less than the late 1850's. I know this is in the context of the build up to the civil war, but how much were neighbors at each other’s necks? I don’t know much about that period aside from the obvious events that followed (slavery being the huge and obvious motivator for the war), so I’m not sure how divided everybody was. But it seems like in the US today, th…

You would only believe that if you don't actually talk to your neighbors. In the real world (i.e. not the corporate media) most people have more moderate and nuanced viewpoints. Demonizing and alienating those people is not a winning political strategy. This is, by the way, one reason why the Joe Rogan Experience podcast has been so amazingly popular. The host comes across as a moderate leftist, but he has guests fro…

Not trying to fit into your red vs blue grouping, but I don’t think anyone considers Joe Rogan to be left at all. He’s generally seen at Dr Oz for 30 year old dudes. I’ve listened to some after hearing him hyped up and generally fitting into the target demographic. Didn’t find much nuance.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#203
post #21
post #11

Haidt makes an excellent observation about the mid-20th century unity being an aberration due to the technology of the time: > Gurri is no fan of elites or of centralized authority, but he notes a constructive feature of the pre-digital era: a single “mass audience,” all consuming the same content, as if they were all looking into the same gigantic mirror at the reflection of their own society. Something I think we o…

This might be a weird outcome of the inability of large groups to process nuance. Groups seem to struggle with the idea that things can be done one way in one place and another way in another place - and struggle in a way that individuals seem not to. Groups - even small government types, weirdly - seem to fall into a trap whenever something goes wrong. The answer to a challenge is "centralise power, then do things m…

Collectivism, by definition, requires the use of force against people who aren’t complaint with the “collective”, so it requires violence.

It’s a lot easier to commit violence against people when you can outsource it to someone else, so collectivism requires a strong, central authority. The less local that authority is, the less culpable we can convince ourselves we are when it goes wrong. The reason we keep building these large, dysfunctional political systems is because taking responsibility is hard, and most people don’t want to put in the effort.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#205
post #163
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook is mentioned 19 times, Fox News once, and talk radio zero. This is a very techno deterministic argument that utterly fails to acknowledge the main source of misinformation and division is boring old tech like cable news and radio. The main role Facebook serves is to make Fox and radio personalities more accessible.

Fox News and conservative talk radio have existed since the early 1990s yet the extreme polarization in American life didn't begin until ~2010, which appears to prove Haidt's point.

Something else happened around 2010 -- we elected a black president. Frankly that made a lot of people lose their minds. I think there's a lot of folks out there who don't mind black people exactly, but absolutely abhor the idea that a black person might be in a position of power over them. Witness the commentary from the far right on the new Supreme Court Justice: "Your children and your grandchildren are going to have to take orders from people like her." (Among a pet-store's worth of other dog whistles. Source: https://www.mediamatters.org/charlie-kirk/charlie-kirk-ketan...)

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#206
There's a ton to unpack here. Some select responses:

> ... but many of them have been devastating for the mental health and education of children, who desperately need to play with one another and go to school ...

I see this repeated a lot and pretty much every time I see it, it is implied that teachers (and, by extension, their families) are expendable. Sure children need socialization (to varying degrees) but someone has to supervise in-school learning. Those teachers are at higher risk than the children are of complications from COVID and their families might be even higher risk. I take exception to this devaluation.

This belies a dark truth of people in general: many people (if not most people) absolutely do not give a fuck about people they don't know if it even mildly inconveniences them.

> Of course, the American culture war and the decline of cross-party cooperation predates social media’s arrival.

Yes it does. Can you spot the trend [1]?

> The ideological distance between the two parties began increasing faster in the 1990s. Fox News and the 1994 “Republican Revolution” converted the GOP into a more combative party.

It goes back further than that: White evangenlical institutions were weaponzed to deliberately foment a culture war because of white supremacy and racism. Consider abortion [2]:

> In 1970, a poll conducted by the Baptist Sunday School Board found that 70 percent of Southern Baptist pastors supported abortion to protect the mental or physical health of the mother, 64 percent supported abortion in cases of fetal deformity and 71 percent in cases of rape.

> Three years later, a poll conducted by the Baptist Standard newsjournal found that 90 percent of Texas Baptists believed their state’s abortion laws were too restrictive.

What changed? It's a deep topic but in summary, Brown v Board of Education ended racial segregation in schools. Mississippi tried to get around this with private schools for K-12 education (where the white enrollment in public schools in Holmes County dropped to zero). In 1970, Green v Kennedy prevented such academies from receiving full tax exempt status. Fears of misagenation caused Bob Jones University (under duress) to admit a token handful of (married) black students. Starting in the mid-70s, efforts were made to motivate voters around abortion, which proved successful in the 1978 midterms and probably helped Reagan defeat Carter in 1980 when Carter refused to consider a constitutional amendment banned abortion.

And the rest is history.

But we see this culture war continue to this day as Republicans have been incredibly successful creating wedge issues to motivate their base around trans rights, gay marriage, critical race theory and the like.

[1]: https://theweek.com/speedreads/454162/rise-filibuster-madden...

[2]: https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/how-south...

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#208
I wish the article had expanded a little more into the political aspect of the past 10 years: Occupy had a passing mention, but deserves a deeper analysis.

The populist movements of Occupy Wallstreet and its more effective mirror image - the Tea Party - were a direct result of distrust of the "system" (i.e. government, politicians and corporate America) in the aftermath of the great recession where people observed large-scale foreclosures, while the government was pouring billions to bail-out corporations and, justice wasn't seen to be done regarding those who precipitated the crisis.

Social media didn't help,but IMO, trust in institutions was severely eroded and a lot of people felt left behind by the unevenly-distributed "recovery", which splintered people into self-reinforcing ideological echo-chambers.

The third act was the Trump presidency, and I have nothing to say which hasn't been said before about polarization in that era.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#209

While I am a big fan of Jonathan Haidt, and have read several of his books, I can't help but feel that this is written from a point of view that is entirely too impressed with (if also afraid of) technology. Peter Turchin predicted escalating levels of polarization in the US, reaching a peak around 2020, without any need to look at social media. The level of political polarization now, while high, is less than the la…

> The level of political polarization now, while high, is less than the late 1850's. I know this is in the context of the build up to the civil war, but how much were neighbors at each other’s necks? I don’t know much about that period aside from the obvious events that followed (slavery being the huge and obvious motivator for the war), so I’m not sure how divided everybody was. But it seems like in the US today, th…

In Missouri the civil war was a vicious neighbor vs neighbor affair.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#210

While I am a big fan of Jonathan Haidt, and have read several of his books, I can't help but feel that this is written from a point of view that is entirely too impressed with (if also afraid of) technology. Peter Turchin predicted escalating levels of polarization in the US, reaching a peak around 2020, without any need to look at social media. The level of political polarization now, while high, is less than the la…

I feel like I see a lot of HN/HN-adjacent (pg, his friends, etc) conversation about polarization and elite overproduction that totally misses the asymmetry between the left and the right.

Like, sure, there are plenty of middle-to-upper-middle-class white liberals with “In This House We Believe” signs in their front yards. But while they may be culturally liberal, if you poll them on Medicare for All, wealth taxes, putting workers on corporate boards, or a $15 minimum wage, you’ll probably find that the rich white people of America aren’t clamoring to do anything that would threaten the status of corporations of people with lots of property. However the people who are (like the Amazon workers who just unionized, or the diverse coalition behind Bernie’s campaigns) are more sympathetic than suburban white liberals, and don’t fit as nicely into the horseshoe shape.

Meanwhile the Right is all in line on their agenda. The Right’s rich white folks aren’t worried about their masses voting against corporate interests, and they’ll happily sign off on whatever culture war issues it takes to keep the middle and working class parts of their constituency coming to the polls.

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