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The endgames of bad faith communication

consilienceproject.org

31–40 of 374 posts

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#31

There is no room for a truce. To oversimplify it, liberal democracy was basically a 200 year armistice between liberals and conservatives. Now, both sides see the imminent prospect of either final defeat or final victory. The only thing that matters is winning. On this, both sides are right.

What does winning mean for either side? The other side doesn't just cease to exist. Nor do the people in the middle our outside the dichotomy. Does it mean autocracy? And how will the prevent revolution? How does it prevent an ongoing, unwinnable civil war which fizzes out to another armistice after everyone is sick of not winning?

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#32
post #15

It would be great for people who desire good faith communication to call out people who are resorting to bad faith techniques. Especially, and most importantly, when those bad actors are of the same political stripe. It's impossible for those bad actors to hear criticism from "the enemy". Only people who share a position of almost total fundamental agreement, can maybe be heard in any criticism of how to better deal…

There are, in my opinion, two problems with that. The first is that it is very, very difficult for most people to view their own side objectively. The Russel conjugation comes to mind; "I am a freedom fighter, you are a rebel, he is a terrorist." The other problem is that often, calling out your own side's bad behavior feels like treachery. "When arguments become soldiers, to criticize your own sides' points is to stab your fellows in the back." Anyone who engages in that kind of criticism is likely to be ostracized as a traitor well before their criticisms are taken seriously. See, for example, the Hundred Flowers Campaign. I believe the book Scout Mindset by Julia Galef discusses ways around the first problem (I have not personally read the book), with the main thrust being that this is exceptionally difficult to train oneself to do and a mostly personal endeavor. For the second problem, I have no idea except to aspire to groups that welcome self-criticism.

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#33

Edit: for those downvoting, I'm ok with you disagreeing or even feeling annoyed or angry with what I said. I sincerely also wish you would comment below so that I better understand what led to you downvoting. Currently I'm not sure what I did to lead to that and I'd like to know so that I might prevent it in the future. Ooo, I feel really frustrated by the labeling of them as good or bad faith communication. In their…

> how does one actually know whether another or oneself is using good faith communication?

By what goal is to be achieved. That's how the article defines the two categories. In a nutshell, good faith communication has the goal of mutual understanding, whether it leads to "agreement" or to the other person doing what you want or not. Bad faith communication has the goal of getting the other person to do what you want, by hook or by crook.

> After reading this article, I almost left it feeling more hopeless, as if it were saying most people communicate with bad intention (bad faith)

I don't think that's true, nor do I think it was the intent of the article. I think most people try to communicate with good faith. But in the world now, with instant mass communication, the small minority of people who do communicate in bad faith can often dominate the communication process. I think one way of looking at the question the article is asking is how that can be fixed.

> I assume even the people acting in "bad faith" are acting out of "good faith"

As above, it's a matter of the goal the person is trying to achieve, not whether or not the person is sincere in their goal. I think most people who communicate in bad faith are perfectly sincere. They may even believe that they are doing something good by getting other people to do things those other people would not choose to do if they were communicated with in good faith.

I do think, though, that the choice of "good faith" and "bad faith" labels does have a reasonable basis: communicating with people to get them to do what you want by hook or by crook, not by convincing them through reasoned argument but just by manipulating them in whatever way works, is not a good thing to do. Even if you think you're doing it to achieve a good goal, human history shows that we humans don't work that way: we can't be trusted to use bad means to achieve good ends.

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#34
post #24
post #19

> many still assert that it is actually unethical to engage "the other side" in good faith. Not everybody on "the other side" is communicating in bad faith, but some are . (Same with "your own side".) When someone is communicating in bad faith, I don't think it's "unethical" to engage them in good faith, I think it's foolhardy . Don't feed the trolls. For dog's sake don't assume you can change the trolls. One of the…

I think this is the hard part. How do you engage in good faith when everyone else seems to be engaging in bad faith tactics? How can you be open to changing your mind when no one else is open to changing theirs? Seems like you immediately lose every time. I believe strongly in these good faith tactics, and I use them to engage with people I vehemently disagree with. Because of this I have a deeper understanding of th…

Besides really not liking the good/bad faith categorization as I described in another comment, another thing I think this article misses is the personal benefit of communicating more openly with someone else. I feel much more relaxed and proud when I open up and tell someone what I'm feeling and why I think I believe what I do than when I insult them for their beliefs. It may not "win" the argument and it may not even get them to open up, but it gets me to open up and I have seen so many benefits to that, even if the other person doesn't "play" with me.

> I think this page is a great definition of what is happening, but a poor prescription of what to do about it.

I strongly strongly agree. Notice how even in this, I'm not saying "you are 100% right", I'm still open to changing my perspective, and yes maybe partially it's because I find that even comments like this land better with the recipient when I express my perspective rather than assert a global truth, but mostly I feel much better saying it this way.

Anyway, I could talk about this stuff for days, it's what I do for work, teaching myself and others how to communicate to better resolve such conflict. Doesn't meant I'm "right" just means I spend a lotttt of time thinking about this stuff.

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#35
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can side step. A common tactic for mediators. Consider a verbal fight within a couple. Everyone wants to have the last word and both throw loudly anything they can come up with at each other. In such a situaiton you may be able to break that mental stance of your opponent by "simply" shifting the topic/perspective to something, they did not expect at all. This way, you may be able to force you opponent to give up…

At which point you’ve used a rhetorical tactic and turned a conversation into a game. I’m saying the space of people communicating is larger than the space of people using words in rhetorical games.

When a conversation is stagnating in a cycle and you elevate it on a meta level, away from the original topic to that conversation and how it is going, you will not only display good faith but you may be able to find the traces of good faith in your opponent and maybe turn back to the original topic.

You cannot flip the table and still call it a game. Its not a game move when your intention is progress and not a rhetorical win.

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#37
post #19

> many still assert that it is actually unethical to engage "the other side" in good faith. Not everybody on "the other side" is communicating in bad faith, but some are . (Same with "your own side".) When someone is communicating in bad faith, I don't think it's "unethical" to engage them in good faith, I think it's foolhardy . Don't feed the trolls. For dog's sake don't assume you can change the trolls. One of the…

When someone posts completely wrong interpretations of events, a world view totally opposite reality and incompatible with the one you experience it’s really hard to think someone can actually be posting in good faith. And it’s not a case of blue dress gold dress sense type perception difference.

Yet there’s a good chunk of people posting incompatible realities, do you ever think that maybe it’s not them living in a mistaken reality but yours that are wrong. How does one test ones own views to be certain?

Do they ever wonder the same thing? If they aren’t posting in bad faith then surely they must wonder the same about you or I. How does one verify and test ones reality.

( you, I and they are all used in the general sense)

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#38
post #19

> many still assert that it is actually unethical to engage "the other side" in good faith. Not everybody on "the other side" is communicating in bad faith, but some are . (Same with "your own side".) When someone is communicating in bad faith, I don't think it's "unethical" to engage them in good faith, I think it's foolhardy . Don't feed the trolls. For dog's sake don't assume you can change the trolls. One of the…

> What's missing from this article is how to protect yourself from bad faith actors.

I think that's because, at the level of society at large, nobody knows how to do that. That's the unsolved problem the article is describing.

At an individual level, you protect yourself from bad faith actors by refusing to interact with them once you become convinced that they're bad faith actors. But at the level of society, many of the bad faith actors are in positions where their actions have large scale consequences that will affect you whether you like it or not. So the individual solution doesn't work for that case.

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#39

There is no room for a truce. To oversimplify it, liberal democracy was basically a 200 year armistice between liberals and conservatives. Now, both sides see the imminent prospect of either final defeat or final victory. The only thing that matters is winning. On this, both sides are right.

The liberal-conservative dichotomy is a modern invention that only came about sometime during the 60's. There have been various parties and coalitions within parties throughout American history.

The battle isn't always being fought in interparty electoral competition. The left-wing project to replace all traditional hierarchy with radical egalitarianism has been in motion in Western society since at least the French Revolution, with some elements appearing in the American Revolution and Protestant Reformation. The right-wing project to preserve the traditional order has been around for longer, at least since the merchant classes threatened the power of the old aristocracy. This conflict has been sometimes dominated and drowned out by more particular, parochial, and pressing disagreements. The US, and to a lesser extent, England, through liberal democracy were able to contain the jacobin forces much more than societies on the continent were. But a 100 year streak of leftist victories has basically put them on the cusp of completely eradicating the old order. Even today, a conservative's mindset has little in common with the thoughts of a monarchist from the late 18th century. Those ways of thinking have been eradicated by political force. Some have tried to revive it, but it is just a faint echo, like trying to recreate a song from a critic's review of it.

Re: The endgames of bad faith communication

#40
post #19

> many still assert that it is actually unethical to engage "the other side" in good faith. Not everybody on "the other side" is communicating in bad faith, but some are . (Same with "your own side".) When someone is communicating in bad faith, I don't think it's "unethical" to engage them in good faith, I think it's foolhardy . Don't feed the trolls. For dog's sake don't assume you can change the trolls. One of the…

I think the key thing here is that the question is not about changing a single person who acts in bad faith. Indeed that may be impossible. How you act may not have any affect on the specific person you’re engaging with, but it will have a (likely very small) affect on the community as a whole. Engage in good faith towards all and others may slowly start to act similarly. Engaged in bad faith and you may encourage others in the community to act the same way.

Another important thing: you may identify 98% of bad faith actors correctly, but that’s still 2% of people acting in good faith that you’ll polarize against your cause.

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