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Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

theatlantic.com

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Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#113
post #28
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are giving too much credit to Putin. All he did was identify already-existing issues and fuel them further. Saying this: "The reactions to what I'm saying will be predictable" is a good attempt but doesn't really work I've found. Of course it's predictable, that doesn't make it incorrect. Yes you guys have been played, but if you didn't see huge growing divisions within the united States well before Putin started…

To add to this.. Us Americans I don't think understand how many other parts of the world don't like us. If you want evidence of this go travel, and see how people treat you, then watch their eyes light up if you tell them you are a Canadian and not American. If it wasn't Putin it would be someone else eventually. You can't win the whack-a-mole game forever. Let's say we could repeat things without Putin. Facebook and…

> watch their eyes light up if you tell them you are a Canadian and not American.

This is such a cliche. I just deleted a long wordy message as to why, but I've lived abroad, speak Spanish, traveled all over and have tons of extended Canadian family, including my maternal grandmother. This sentiment is 100% not true.

I could be in the middle of Tehran or Cairo and tell someone I'm from California and will inevitably get bombarded with friendly questions and stories about how their aunt visited Vermont once, and have I been there. This is the case anywhere I've gone.

I've personally travelled with Canadians. Trust me, no one's eyes light up outside the English speaking world, if that. "Oh, you're from Calgary? Interesting... Is that on the West Coast? Oh, sort of in the middle. Like near Montana?" I mean, it's Canada.

Also, it's not as if anyone wouldn't already know someone is Canadian. They wear red Maple Leaf patches from head to toe, and will even apply fake maple leaf tattoos.

Anyways, it's completely untrue. The US government may not be the most popular all the time, but Americans are treated just fine.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#114
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Differences in world view are less significant when the bureaucrats and executives with power over your life live nearby instead of in another city and state. How do you reconcile this with jim crow-era terrorism, for example? The movements were local and very loosely organized on even a regional level, but the bureaucrats wielded incredible power over individuals in their jurisdiction. There were definitely other…

Institutions are error correction. If more than a certain threshold percentage of the population is straight up violently racist, no amount of quality institutions can recover signal from that noise. Suppose x% of people will vote to convict a black man no matter the evidence, and the remaining 1-x% have a y% chance of erroneously voting to convict irrespective of race. At what value of x do you expect 2/3rds of wron…

Oh, you and your silly little math. /s

Really, though, things like this should be taught and demonstrated from k-12. A kindergartener can understand the cognitive dissonance when the Monty Hall problem is demonstrated, especially if an adult "cheats" repeatedly when they know the mechanics. After the big reveal, the kid knows the difference between 1 out of 2, and 2 out of 3. They'll play it smart by the time they hit third grade, and by graduation, they'll have an intuitive understanding of posterior probabilities.

Drug tests, statistical sampling used to validate polls, and misleading sales tactics would be neutered by a well informed, Bayesian thinking public.

Exponential thinking should be introduced early and feedback loops explained. If legislators could rationally deconstruct a problem such as racist false convictions they would be equipped to modify the systems they legislate to prevent or mitigate the damages implicit to reality-based statistics.

Prisons for profit would lose 80% or more of their fodder. The broken family, broken community cycle would be effectively ended.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#115
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Small government types” are a fraud. That stuff is just chum for the masses. Wedge issues like guns, abortion, etc are designed to break traditional democratic constituencies from the herd. Catholic priests were leaders of socialist revolutions in Latin America. In the United States, some catholic bishops were in favor of child separation due to abortion.

I think you’ve got this backwards. Social and cultural issues—different people’s conception of how to preserve freedom, when life begins, how to socialize their children, God, etc.—are always important to people and always have been. What precipitated the independence war that created my country was a language movement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_language_movement It’s the insistence on ideological uniform…

That's a Republican narrative, not really backed up by any sound historical analysis. Whereas creation, nurture and development of wedge issues is a standard right wing tactic across the world. Be it love-jihad in India, miscegenation in USA, jewish hatred in nazi Germany or recognition of Ahmediyas as muslims in Pakistan. It incentivizes voters to vote on ideological lines while ignoring/ letting politicians/wealthy industries get away with looting public monies and resources, legally or illegally.

Case in point- gun laws, abortions, gay marriage are simply not a focus of right wing parties in India. Because these were never nurtured and developed as wedge issues by BJP. Instead the wedge issue they have nurtured and developed is the hatred of muslims and Christians. Absolutely no one gives a shit about abortions or who does what, (except for the government preventing female infanticide). Whether right/left wing they consider abortions as personal business of the woman/man involved. This topic has not been nurtured as a wedge issue because it doesn't align with the BJPs wedge issue- presence of muslims/Christians in society.

I am not sure what the significance of Bangladesh 's creation is in this context. The primary reason for independence was Pakistani governments failure to cede power to the east Pakistanis who had won the elections .

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#116

> Banks and other industries have “know your customer” rules so that they can’t do business with anonymous clients laundering money from criminal enterprises. Large social-media platforms should be required to do the same. That does not mean users would have to post under their real names; they could still use a pseudonym. It just means that before a platform spreads your words to millions of people, it has an obliga…

Instead of talking about the dangers of anonymity, I think we need to reframe the argument in terms of the dangers of social credit score. I don't mean dangers from authoritarians, of course. Everyone understands how the Chinese system is terrible, for instance. I mean the dangers of a "natural", "emergent" social credit score. The kind that you get for free when you attach a way to establish who is who to otherwise anonymous messaging.

It is a problem of trust.

Humans are very trusting. I don't mean this in the sense that we are naive, but rather that we perform an enormous amount of our decision making on beliefs whose veracity we have not established with experiment or argument or proof, but on the basis that someone who you trust believes it too.

This is a very convenient heuristic, as otherwise you probably wouldn't be willing to get on an airplane, but it has very serious implications when a wrong idea gets too much traction, and now suddenly everyone believes it only because everyone else believes it. What does this have to do with identity, you say? Well, if you don't know who said something, you don't know whether or not to trust it. No one (well, almost no one) trusts something just because it is written down somewhere. The aggregate amount of identity floating around is an upper bound on how much belief that can be created exclusively by the trust mechanism.

Moreover, trust is increasing. This is a little abstract, but if there is a belief that tends to only be expressed by the people I trust, and someone expresses that belief, I gain a little more trust in that person. I have added trust to the system. Note again that this would be impossible in a completely anonymous system.

One would hope that the breaking of trust was transitive in the same way that the gaining of trust is transitive. If I discover that you actually believe something wrong, or you want to hurt me, or any of the dozens of things that mean that I shouldn't trust you, then all of the things that I believe because you believed them get put back in the queue. These beliefs should have to be rejustified.

Unlike in the trust creation process though, this is essentially impossible. Not only do I have to go back and find out all the things that I believe because you believed them, but also find the things that I believe because someone else trusted you and I trusted them, and so forth. If the community is small enough, it is possible to regroup and redo the corrupted calculations, but the upper bound on that is obviously very low. Really the reason that trust can still survive is that the social penalties for lying from a highly trusted position are that you do not get to participate in the gains from trade that being so trusted provide. Again, if you are a doctor, you lose your entire livelihood if people do not trust you.

So there are two factors that influence whether an epistemological system of trust can survive the interference of trusted liars. The first is how rare trusted liars are, and the second is how much total trust there is in the system. A system which is trusting enough can be completely obliterated by even very rare trusted liars. If your community is the size of the internet, and as fundamentally predicated on trust as non-anonymous social media has become, then your entire system of belief (based on trust) functionally does not have a chain of custody. This is a crisis of epistemology. Any adversary capable of creating trusted liars is not going to find that they have much trouble doing so.

This brings me to my final point, which is that trust is valuable. It is the very basis of advertising, and they have even gotten bold enough to throw the curtain aside and brand themselves as "influencers". Trust can, and is, bought and sold on the open market. The more trusted you are, the more valuable your betrayal is. A doctor can make more than enough money appearing on talk shows for it to be worth trading their good will.

The devastation that the corruption of the trust mechanism has had on the aggregate belief system has been profound. I think you will struggle to find a belief that is held by less than 20% of people.

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Ultimately, two things are required. One is to pull an immediate 180 on internet "trustworthiness". Increasing aggregate trust is a catastrophe greater than global warming. Move to anonymous or pseudonymous boards immediately and never look back except in grave, well explained warnings of what lies that way. The second is that we must work towards reducing our reliance on trust as a mechanism entirely. This is exactly the opposite of what is taught in school, so I suppose it too relies on our capacity to perform a complete 180.

Even mathematics, THE constructive epistemology, is taught as a bunch of algorithms that you are expected to trust. For most people, even including those who take math in college, this is the only exposure to mathematics that they will ever have.

Science, likewise, is taught as a collection of facts, rather than the process by which those facts were obtained. Perhaps the only non-trust based epistemology that I encountered in my (pre-collegiate) education was in computer science. The-computer-does-what-you-tell-it-to is a pretty profound starting point. It certainly changed my life. I can't imagine that K-12 CS programs haven't been utterly neutered by the education system at this point, but hopefully, you can't bureaucracy away their main feature. It's a chink in the armor at least.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#117
I have to speculate that the reason why "social media is indeed corrosive to trust in governments, news media, and people and institutions in general" is oftentimes because it highlights their apparent failings (biases, lies, etc). That is, the problem is not primarily one of people failing to trust in trustworthy institutions, but due to a hyper-focus (retweeting) on the failings of those institutions.

As we communicate more, we find we don't agree as much as we thought we did, and that is divisive. Social media allows us to highlight and amplify the information about our disagreements.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#118

I have to speculate that the reason why "social media is indeed corrosive to trust in governments, news media, and people and institutions in general" is oftentimes because it highlights their apparent failings (biases, lies, etc). That is, the problem is not primarily one of people failing to trust in trustworthy institutions, but due to a hyper-focus (retweeting) on the failings of those institutions. As we communi…

[deleted]

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#119

Why do these people use the word democracy to propose changes that are oligarchy?

Quoted post unavailable.

Jonathan Haidt is not a random guy. I don't think you're being fair to the article or to this forum.

Re: Why the past 10 years of American life have been uniquely stupid

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada literally had to suspend the charter and due process by enacting the emergency measures act, which is unprecedented amongst western countries. Why would the government do that if no one supported them anyways? Your insurrection did not kill 5 people by the way. I get that there's a weird urge to make that event some sort of insanely important historical moment but it doesn't mean you have to make up dead peopl…

> Canada literally had to suspend the charter and due process by enacting the emergency measures act, which is unprecedented amongst western countries This is not totally true. [1] https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-pr... And of course there are others. The US has quiet a bit of history around suspending rights. This is the issue I have with these kinds of statements of, the sky is falling, thi…

> > Canada literally had to suspend the charter and due process by enacting the emergency measures act, which is unprecedented amongst western countries

> This is not totally true.

> [1] https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-pr...

> And of course there are others. The US has quiet a bit of history around suspending rights.

> This is the issue I have with these kinds of statements of, the sky is falling, this hasn't happened before. A co-worker did the same with masks. Masks mandate are the most egregious thing the US government has ever done. But apparently putting people born and raised in the US with Japanese ancestry in camps was less egregious than masks? States banned the use of the German language? The house unamerican activities committee ruined the lives of people by dragging them infront of congress for character assassination?

If you had to go back to 1862 you are proving my point. Canada didn't even exist then. I guess I should have specified "never happened post ww2".

I totally agree with your second point, I'm not saying that the measures were worse. The suspension of rights is though; the issue isn't really the mask/vaccine mandate it was the reaction to the protests against them.

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