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Europe is investing heavily in trains

nytimes.com

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Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#281

Post by Karrot_Kream »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #272
gumby wrote: post #267

> Last year, SNCF relaunched overnight services between Paris and Nice, with tickets starting as low as 19 euros, about $21, for a midweek low-season ticket. That compares with 31 euros, not including baggage fees or the cost of airport transfers, for a short flight on EasyJet These prices are inconceivable in the US, where competition in air travel has essentially been eliminated.

And yet US airlines (United/American/Delta/Southwest/Alaska/JetBlue) are barely profitable, if not losing money many years. The most hated airline, Spirit, has the most consistent profit margin 10%+, but all the others are near 0% most years.

Air travel is expensive. Airframe maintenance is expensive and labor intensive. Pilots are highly skilled professionals and need to be paid as such. Jet fuel is expensive. Handling baggage is a logistical challenge. Due to the nature of aircraft, they have low limits on passenger capacity. The government subsidizes air travel into rural areas through the Essential Air Services with about 1/6th the budget it puts into Amtrak. The US government frequently "bails out" airline companies and spends more money than they do on the yearly budget of Amtrak. This ignores the bevvy of subsidizes city governments offer airports to stay in business.

Like most forms of infrastructure, American traveling preferences are driven mostly by a mixture of emotion and lobbying. Air travel doesn't make much economic sense and hasn't for years.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#282

Post by yodsanklai »

gumby wrote: post #267

> Last year, SNCF relaunched overnight services between Paris and Nice, with tickets starting as low as 19 euros, about $21, for a midweek low-season ticket. That compares with 31 euros, not including baggage fees or the cost of airport transfers, for a short flight on EasyJet These prices are inconceivable in the US, where competition in air travel has essentially been eliminated.

This price isn't representative. To give you an idea, Lyon - Lille tomorrow is between $90 and $130 for a second class ticket. It's a three hours trip. For more context, the median salary in France is about $2000 after tax [1].

[1] https://www.lafinancepourtous.com/2021/06/28/salaire-median-...

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#283

Post by thomasahle »

cinntaile wrote: post #78
simonsarris wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is mentioned near the end of the article but the reason those short domestic flights are so cheap in Europe is that commercial kerosene is currently tax exempt in every single EU member state. Jet fuel is cheaper per gallon in the EU than it is in the USA! (or was, before the current war) In typically tax-happy Europe this always struck me as odd, agree it is sad when you find out an airplane ticket is cheaper t…

I bet this keeps a lot of national airlines afloat and they're already barely afloat, if they start taxing kerosene they'll require even more subsidies from their governments.

The point was that if train was cheaper than flying OP would fly less. Of course that means we'd have fewer airlines.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#284

Post by mcv »

Manuel_D wrote: post #269
wolfgang000 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad idea in mi opinion, this is a solved problem, overhead wires, the amount of energy lost between the converting water into hydrogen and then back into water to get electricity can be as high as 70%, it's just a bad idea when you can use that energy directly using wire to get the same job done

Overhead wires would involve a significant infrastructure investment. Not too much of an issue with more densely populated areas like Europe - and countries like France and Japan already do use overhead wires - but it is not cost competitive in sparse locations like much of North America. It's true that it's contingent on a carbon-free source of hydrogen. But if something like thermochemical hydrogen production throu…

> "Countries like France and Japan already do use overhead wires"

Don't most countries already use these? World wide, a third of all rails is electrified in some way, and for long-distance rail, that's bound to be overhead.

Most European rail is electrified. So hydrogen or any other diesel replacement is only relevant for very rural, very sparsely used lines.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#285

Post by Karrot_Kream »

thebean11 wrote: post #63
monksy wrote: post #27

As someone who just rode in a sleeper car for the second time. I like amtrak when I can do this. It's completely unreasonable for a round trip, but I did Chicago->Seattle and Chicago to Boston (Where I"m currently here.. and will be flying back tomorrow). It's a mostly great experience... all due to the scenery you're watching, not so much everything else. What worries me if it becomes more privatized: You'll see the…

I can't wrap my head around how expensive Amtrak is, given that it's so heavily subsidized by the government.

> given that it's so heavily subsidized by the government

It's not. Until the recent infrastructure bill, Amtrak didn't even have a dedicated yearly budget. Every year they would beg Congress for some money, get some amount less than that, then prioritize what they could given the funding. Moreover roads in the US never pay for themselves, they're just written off as an "economic driver" rather than expected to pay for themselves. Very few roads in the US are toll roads and much of the US is vehemently against toll roads. Fundamentally, public infrastructure is public infrastructure. The public pays for public infrastructure. If we expect Amtrak to be able to fund some non-trivial percentage of its infrastructure costs then we're placing an expectation on Amtrak that the US road and highway system does not have.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#286

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

Manuel_D wrote: post #269
wolfgang000 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad idea in mi opinion, this is a solved problem, overhead wires, the amount of energy lost between the converting water into hydrogen and then back into water to get electricity can be as high as 70%, it's just a bad idea when you can use that energy directly using wire to get the same job done

Overhead wires would involve a significant infrastructure investment. Not too much of an issue with more densely populated areas like Europe - and countries like France and Japan already do use overhead wires - but it is not cost competitive in sparse locations like much of North America. It's true that it's contingent on a carbon-free source of hydrogen. But if something like thermochemical hydrogen production throu…

Given that trains need tracks, why is it significant added infrastructure to have wires?

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#287

Post by mcv »

sva_ wrote: post #260
wolfgang000 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad idea in mi opinion, this is a solved problem, overhead wires, the amount of energy lost between the converting water into hydrogen and then back into water to get electricity can be as high as 70%, it's just a bad idea when you can use that energy directly using wire to get the same job done

Overhead wires are not a solution on a large scale, and also an eyesore.

Overhead wires are most definitely a solution on a large scale, and are used as such all over the world. And especially in Europe.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#288

Post by lobochrome »

Observations from a frequent train traveller in Germany and Japan:

- Train Travel works when the frequency of trains is so high that you do not need to think about "a" connection, but instead just choose the "next" connection.

- Any significant number of delayed trains are a problem when one has important appointments. Morning meetings require an overnight trip, even if an early morning connection would usually work.

- European Train companies produce shitty trains (compare to Japan), lead amongst them Siemens for Deutsche Bahn. Train restaurants are broken too often. A/C breaks down in summer. Alstom TGVs are an exception - if they are pre-Siemens-merger attempt period.

- Electrification of lines is just not happening anymore in Germany. It's politically more sexy to do something with Hydrogen. Very odd.

- Deutsche Bahn is the largest user of Round-Up (Glyphosat) in Germany. Still - vegetation along the tracks causes frequent delays (burning brush, fallen trees), because maintenance crews have been cut.

- By trying to remodel stations cheaply for commerce, most stations in Germany have become unpleasant to navigate. Signage is particularly bad (compared to Japan).

- The mood in the train system has become very aggressive. Drinking groups who ransack compartments, passengers who get angry because of delays and start shouting, conductors who react unprofessionally - it's all just about to blow up.

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#289

Post by AngusH »

uuyi wrote: post #3

Good on you Europe. Here in the UK we are heavily investing in rail replacement busses at the moment.

I'd say the UK situation has some good, some bad.

A lot of the rail replacement currently is due to staff sickness ... Covid has hit a lot of things very badly.

Positively, the government has heavily supported rail through the pandemic. (estimated 22 billion pounds in 2020-21, up from 11 billion in 2019-20) (1)

Mostly to make up for loss of passenger ticket income.

Investment in High Speed 2 is also continuing despite the current situation, which I'm relatively hopeful about.

On the other hand the government has demanded cutbacks on operations to possibly 80% or less of pre-covid, and there seems to be a lot of overcrowding in some areas where the demand has rebounded faster. There is also a fairly widespread withdrawal of much of the onboard catering :-(

(1) https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

Re: Europe is investing heavily in trains

#290

Post by nicoburns »

xeeeeeeeeeeenu wrote: post #231

It seems likely that hydrogen will replace diesel in trains. Companies like Alstom[1], PESA[2] and Talgo[3] are developing hydrogen trains. Germany has already started deploying them on a small scale[4], while Poland is planning to[5]. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_Coradia_LINT#iLint [2] - https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/poland-pesa-presented-a-hydr... [3] - https://www.railwaypro.com/wp/talgo-to-launch-…

I think the vast majority of trains will go electric. This is already a mainstream technology (unlike electric cars). Overhead wires or 3rd rails in most places, with batteries where that's not possible or economic. Perhaps hydrogen will have it's niche though (perhaps on low-use railways?).
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